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Forum > Goal Line Blitz > CPU-over-Human playoff upsets: proof of Confidence's importance?
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Novus
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For as long as I've played GLB, two different phenomena have particularly vexed some team owners: the so-called "playoff sim" where the same team performs great in the regular season and awfully in the playoffs; and a human team losing to a CPU team that they'd previously defeated by a large margin -- an event that seems to happen with particular viciousness come playoff time.

One theory about the "playoff sim" that quite a few people have put forth is the role of Confidence. Bort himself has stated unequivocally on multiple occasions that there is no such thing as a "playoff sim," but he also stated on multiple occasions that Confidence is FAR more important that most dot-builders believe. Bort never came right out and said this next idea as I recall, but he hinted on a couple of occasions that Confidence helps your dot in high-pressure situations, and playoff games are high-pressure situations, so... you fill in the rest. Plenty of people over the years certainly have, so I'm not exactly treading new ground here.

I've long been fascinated by CPU-over-human upsets and the forum meltdowns that result from them, especially when they happen in the playoffs. In many cases, the team owner points to their 16-0 record and states as immutable fact that their team is "TOO GOOD" to lose to a CPU team, and therefore the game must be bugged. In most cases, it turns out the human team is playing in a terrible league which inflates their record and tricks them into thinking their team is better than it actually is, and the CPU team that knocked them off in the playoffs usually played close games with the human team in the regular season -- close games that the team owner ignored because "we're too good to lose to a CPU team, right?"

What fascinates me even more are the cases that DON'T fit that mold -- cases where a legitimately great team in a real league against legit opponents gets upset by a CPU team in the playoffs. These cases are rare, but they happen just often enough that they can't be ignored. But oftentimes I can still find some explanation, and there was often a warning sign in the form of a closer-than-it-should've-been win in the regular season that should've served as a red flag to the human team. But time after time after time -- it happens in the playoffs.

Is there a connection?

We know Bort says Confidence is more important that most dot-builders think. And we know that CPU dots scale up-and-down based on the average level of the human dots around them. It's safe to assume that the CPU dots have formulas for each Attribute that scale up-and-down as part of that mechanism. Since Bort clearly valued Confidence more than most human dot-builders do, does that mean Confidence is over-emphasized in CPU dots? And if CPU dots have a higher ratio of Confidence compared to their human counterparts -- could this explain why some CPU teams seem to perform so much better in the playoffs? Do we all need to be 4-capping Confidence on all of our dots?

Or am I over-thinking this?

Or did someone else come up with this theory back in Season 57 and I'm late to the party?
 
.spider.
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/game.pl?game_id=3009626

But they did also beat me both reg season games as well....and no i havent worked on confidence yet....

I guess my only gripe with losing to CPU teams is you cant really "gameplan" against them....
 
Rocdog21
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Originally posted by .spider.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/game.pl?game_id=3009626

But they did also beat me both reg season games as well....and no i havent worked on confidence yet....

I guess my only gripe with losing to CPU teams is you cant really "gameplan" against them....


I agree, especially in casual.
 
lexden11
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Originally posted by Novus


Or am I over-thinking this?



yes
 
Jeff Williams
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its a combination i think- over confidence by the GMs and not much from their players. Somewhere i will not bother to look but i remember they said in play-offs confidence has a bigger effect. that is why they got specific VA for play-off confidence, remember? Confidence definitely has bigger affect in play-offs but its still not an excuse to lose to a cpu team. maybe if its a cpu with a super great AI but even then you should be able to find plays they just can't defend and win. teams lose against the cpu in play-offs cuz they don't plan and then when they fall behind early the players confidence is crushed against the cpu who got great confidence. it makes sense cuz most of us sacrifice confidence for extra skill- but if the game plan doesn't allow u to take advantage of extra skill, well, then the most confident best conditioned will probably win, which is gonna be the cpu
 
Jeff Williams
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Originally posted by .spider.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/game.pl?game_id=3009626

But they did also beat me both reg season games as well....and no i havent worked on confidence yet....

I guess my only gripe with losing to CPU teams is you cant really "gameplan" against them....


i think the problem is that your whole team other than u and proko is inactive. it aint your fault its the agents
 
.spider.
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Originally posted by Jeff Williams
its a combination i think- over confidence by the GMs and not much from their players. Somewhere i will not bother to look but i remember they said in play-offs confidence has a bigger effect. that is why they got specific VA for play-off confidence, remember? Confidence definitely has bigger affect in play-offs but its still not an excuse to lose to a cpu team. maybe if its a cpu with a super great AI but even then you should be able to find plays they just can't defend and win. teams lose against the cpu in play-offs cuz they don't plan and then when they fall behind early the players confidence is crushed against the cpu who got great confidence. it makes sense cuz most of us sacrifice confidence for extra skill- but if the game plan doesn't allow u to take advantage of extra skill, well, then the most confident best conditioned will probably win, which is gonna be the cpu


I would agree that the CPU players are more well rounded, but most builders, not all, but most builders work on confidence last....

that said, most builders care more about plateau success, i guess i dont really care to lose in the playoffs on the way up...
 
Jeff Williams
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very true. however, even in pro i noticed this dynamic where the play-off games vs the cpu would be closer than the regular season games, and it was obviously due to confidence. However, it was not nearly enough to affect the outcome
 
Monkey Boy
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Originally posted by .spider.
I guess my only gripe with losing to CPU teams is you cant really "gameplan" against them....


What do you mean? Everything I've read and heard is that CPU owned teams retain and use the AIs from their last owner. So by the playoffs, you have a full season and pre-season to scout. But I guess that leads to the question of how the CPU team selects an AI to use. I would think that if an AI was set to "default", it would be used 100% of the time, and all their games would look smilar. But I have seen CPUs teams use what was obviously different run/pass ratios, suggesting that a different AI is being used. What happens if the AI selected resides only with the previous owner, or does the team retain a copy until bought? Does the basic play calling get activated?

Could inactive players during the playoffs take a bigger confidence hit? Spider, your game was close, so there shouldn't be any huge scoring morale hits, so how did their morale hold up? Does it look like the inactives' morale was draining faster?
 
Novus
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Originally posted by .spider.
I would agree that the CPU players are more well rounded, but most builders, not all, but most builders work on confidence last....

that said, most builders care more about plateau success, i guess i dont really care to lose in the playoffs on the way up...


Thing is, I've heard people as high as WL complain about "playoff SIM" regarding human vs human games. It's been a long time, of course, but I've seen it.

I'm not really trying to answer the question of why CPU teams beat human teams. (In most cases, the answer to that question is obvious.) I'm wondering if CPU teams upsetting human teams specifically in the playoffs could be evidence that Confidence plays a larger role in playoff success than people realize. If true, that would explain why so many people early on were convinced there was a separate "playoff sim."
 
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Most high level teams require "adequate" confidence at all but a few positions by the end build. At the other positions, huge salaries boost morale and presumably help to overcome confidence-starved dots.

Anecdotally I had a rTE on Indy that was part of WL titles in 55, 56, and 57. His confidence throughout plateau was 13. He had max salary, and put up receiving TDs in each of the 3 playoff games in Season 56.
 
Novus
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Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
Most high level teams require "adequate" confidence at all but a few positions by the end build. At the other positions, huge salaries boost morale and presumably help to overcome confidence-starved dots.

Anecdotally I had a rTE on Indy that was part of WL titles in 55, 56, and 57. His confidence throughout plateau was 13. He had max salary, and put up receiving TDs in each of the 3 playoff games in Season 56.


What would you consider "adequate" Confidence to be?

Keep in mind, back in the day, people would mention in the Q&A forums what they considered "adequate" Confidence to be, and Bort continued to state that most GLB players under-valued Confidence. That makes me wonder if "adequate" really isn't. But if everyone's in the same "adequate Confidence" boat, the effects might not be obvious, and an otherwise well-built dot on a strong team could still put up strong performances in the playoffs. And I'm willing to bet your anecdotal TE was solidly-built overall.
 
Theo Wizzago
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IMO, Confidence is both dot specific and one of those "you don't miss it until you do" things. To explain, I personally think a QB or Kicker with low confidence will suck overall. Sure, they'll have 'outlier' games you can always point to, but they'll also have games where they totally tank it. You can make a case for each dot and just how much Confidence it really needs... such as O-linemen and D-linemen when they're hammering each other with AOI and Pummel and other such 'morale damaging' things... but there will always be people that say "But I built a dot with only 20 confidence and he played great!" as well as those that say, "Yeah... we lost because a lack of confidence caused a morale spiral."
Which brings us to the "you don't miss it until you do" part. WAY back when... long before we left BETA... posts were made every single season about 'morale spirals' and how much it sucked to lose games that way. In games where the scoring was back and forth, it's likely it doesn't happen (or happen enough to be noticed). In games where one or two 'bad breaks/great plays' caused the avalanche to start... that's when you "miss having it". Of course nobody gives credit to great wins when those things happen... nor credit to Confidence in those games. Because, for the most part, Confidence is a ghost. There are no signals in replays that say, "Player lost confidence"... or blurbs in a game where you will see "and this was the turning point of the game when confidence failed". Confidence is one of those skills where you cannot definitively prove it's cause and effect. Not in any scientific manner/mathematical spreadsheet.

So in the end (IMHO) it comes down to 3 things;
#1 is the quality of your coaches and the builds themselves. If you never find yourself in a situation wher a lack of Confidence can cost you the game then you pretty much can build your dots any way you want as far as how much Confidence.
#2 is just how much you put on your dots to protect them from confidence damaging events... or SA's or VA's on the opponent's dots. If you have low Confidence and no protection... yeah... probably not gonna end well overall.
#3, is your own personal convictions and thoughts on the effects of Confidence (or lack thereof). Because you cannot prove how well it works... or how much it doesn't matter. Not to any degree you can show the world of GLB dot builders and team builders that will change their minds on what they think about... Confidence.
 
reddogrw
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Originally posted by Novus
What would you consider "adequate" Confidence to be?

Keep in mind, back in the day, people would mention in the Q&A forums what they considered "adequate" Confidence to be, and Bort continued to state that most GLB players under-valued Confidence. That makes me wonder if "adequate" really isn't. But if everyone's in the same "adequate Confidence" boat, the effects might not be obvious, and an otherwise well-built dot on a strong team could still put up strong performances in the playoffs. And I'm willing to bet your anecdotal TE was solidly-built overall.


catch22 built dots with low confidence

QB studies with confidence showed you didn't need as much as people were using

most people shoot for 40 to get OTK
 
Novus
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Originally posted by reddogrw
catch22 built dots with low confidence

QB studies with confidence showed you didn't need as much as people were using

most people shoot for 40 to get OTK


I'm aware most people shoot for 40 to get OTK... been doing that myself for a while.

Catch-22 was building dots with low Confidence at a time when MOST top dot-builders were building dots with low or low-ish Confidence, so his low-Confidence dots could get away with it because they were playing in a low-Confidence environment.

I've seen people explore the effects of Confidence over the years, but your post made me think of something: haven't those tests generally been focused on regular season games and scrims? If Confidence has a larger impact in the playoffs, the only way to test that is by running experiments with playoff games -- which owners don't generally don't want to do because they understandably want to win playoff games. And playoff games are, by their nature, difficult to experiment with -- there's no reliable way to select particular opponents or matchups short of full-on manipulatioin of the standings. And when two teams play each other in the playoffs once, that's it -- there's no way to repeat the experiment, unless you can keep two Plateau'd rosters completely unchanged for a second season in a row, get both teams to meet in the playoffs again, and have them use the same gameplans from the season before.

If Confidence actually does have a larger impact in the playoffs than it does in the regular season, you won't see that impact in regular season games. A squad of otherwise very well built dots with low Confidence could go 16-0 every regular season, and people can point to that and say, "See? There's proof you don't need Confidence." But it's actually just proof that you don't need Confidence in the regular season. And we've all seen teams that regularly dominate in the regular season and regularly fall flat on their face in the playoffs. It's easy to assume it's because they're bad at gameplanning when it matters, and there's something to that, of course -- but what if it's not the only factor?
 
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