Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Sonic
This is what all of your questions boil down to: what do you need to sacrifice to make the 4th AEQ happen, in a way that doesn't undermine the build? Answer that and there's your answer. Usually it means that you have a point less here and there to get the requisite BT's. Plus the boredom of light training for that long O_o

I was actually looking for the math mostly. Things I wasn't seeing clearly. If I'm going to do this thing then it needs to be able to show both paths and all results... at least clearly enough so it's not confusing and someone can choose which way to go confidently.

As for myself, I want to do 4 AEQ... but not stupidly. Right now I'm about a 75%'er. About 75% of the time I can really nail the numbers and get a high quality 4 AEQ dot. It's the 25% that bothers me and I'm just working on paring that # down smaller. Some of it is the shopping and how that can either really help or totally mess up a dot. I did an AEQ guide once... it's not bad but it can be improved, but only if I can tie in the build as well.

For me, I generally make 3 aeq dots. For 4 aeq, only if I want that extra +3 when trying to max out my primary attribute, or it is a dot that has less attributes to raise. Also the value of the 4th aeq is reduced if this a 2nd or 3rd %aeq and really only adding 7.5% or 3.75%. When I started, I only made 4 aeq dots. Later I switched after I analyzed the math.

For the math, try to maximize the SPs/day and also balance your build objectives.I use the 15BT=1SP since you can always convert them.

For example, I have a L68 CB that has 4 more quad multitrains. Last train was 31% of 2 SP, 12% of 6 SP, 9% of a 9 SP and 8% of a 13 SP attribute plus 12 BT. So SPs are .62+.81+1.04+.72+.8=3.99 SPs / 4 day so about 1 SP per day. Changing an attribute on the next one to get it up to 5.26 SPs or 1.26 per day. Due to the SP value of your higher attributes, the quad multitrains are usually worth about 4 SPs or 1/day later in the dot life. Early and midlife multitrains I find to be worth about 3 SPs or .75/day.

For a light train, the math is train%xSPvalue+.4= total SP value and a normal train is similar but add .27. (6/15=.4 and 4/15=.27) I just ran the numbers for a 2 star attribute for normal and light training. By the math, normal training is always worth more SPs except when attribute value is in the 40s when SP=1 and at 61 when SP=2 where hopefully you are never training and the difference is only .01 SP. The only time that light training is worth >.75 SPs is <15. For normal training for value >.75 SPs is <26 and >91. Also I have noticed you get a little extra % sometimes on a normal train and very rarely on a light train.

Sorry, that was more related to maximizing SPs/day than the question posed. So to bring this all together, I try to build 3 aeq dots because I can multitrain longer which is the highest value training that also increases in value the later you can continue and also try to include a 25 day normal training of an attribute in the range of 88-99 at 4% late when the dot is over 200 days old. For a 4 aeq dot depending on your shopping luck, you are switching over to only light training in the d180-d200 range.

you guys keep saying +3 for attribute. what about the +15% bonus?

I'll almost always go for 4 AEQ cuz of the % bonuses alone.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
you guys keep saying +3 for attribute. what about the +15% bonus?

I'll almost always go for 4 AEQ cuz of the % bonuses alone.

When talking about 3 or 4 AEQ, I'm only talking about % gear. The only time I'm not considering % gear is end of tree SA's (eg WRers). The +3 to gear is more relevant to me with regards to building, as your primary skill might stop investing in a bit earlier which therefore gifts those not invested saved points into the next important skills/secondary skills/SA's.

The other calculation to make with regards to 3 or 4 AEQ is starring of attributes for training. Is it an important attribute to take to 4/5 or just stick to 3? End build usually lets you know, especially if not quite hitting targets set.

Originally posted by Sonic
When talking about 3 or 4 AEQ, I'm only talking about % gear. The only time I'm not considering % gear is end of tree SA's (eg WRers). The +3 to gear is more relevant to me with regards to building, as your primary skill might stop investing in a bit earlier which therefore gifts those not invested saved points into the next important skills/secondary skills/SA's.

The other calculation to make with regards to 3 or 4 AEQ is starring of attributes for training. Is it an important attribute to take to 4/5 or just stick to 3? End build usually lets you know, especially if not quite hitting targets set.

sorry i meant so many keep saying the +3 is so important. i rather have 2 MT% on a lot of dots and go with 4 AEQ.

take a powerback for example.

103 str, 96 carrying, 81 agi, 80 speed, 60 jump, 60 stam, 40 conf, 20-30 catch
10 hurdle, 10 powerthrough, 9-10 stiff am, 10 D4Y
2 BT%, powerthough piece, D4Y piece, CE in stiff arm.

what more do you really need attribute/skill wise? can even go 3 BT%. idk. i rarely feel good about 3 AEQ dots.

HHLB - MT%, MT%, FF%, BB%, CE in FF% what would you drop?
rsDE - MT%, MT%, BB%, BB%, CE in FF% what would you drop?

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
you guys keep saying +3 for attribute. what about the +15% bonus?

I'll almost always go for 4 AEQ cuz of the % bonuses alone.

Um... I covered that. Twice.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
sorry i meant so many keep saying the +3 is so important.


Yes.... because the post is about the +3 only and the math and how it ties in with BT's for AEQ. I already said, depending on the Archetype and the build idea behind the dot in question, that I wasn't going to compare bonuses or SA additions because we already agree on their value (mostly... I didn't want this to get into an argument about which bonus and what bonus and all that... which it seems to be determined to devolve into) and their importance.

What I wanted, and some have given me, is what I was missing when considering the extra +3 to your primary skill that you get with a 4th AEQ vs the extra training you get by doing only 3 AEQ. TBH, different teams and owners and coaches all have different ideas about 3 or 4 AEQ and which bonuses to go for. Sure, there's a lot of consensus on many thing such as QB getting PQ % pieces, ect, ect, ect. And, sure, I can make a great argument for Punters or Kickers only doing 3 AEQ... or make the same argument for 4 AEQ. What I really wanted to know was about the +3 to the skill vs the extra training and how the math lined up.

And thanks to all of you for your help. I have a lot of stuff now to work with and an idea how to create a spreadsheet for testing those theories and numbers.

so related to this discussion. i remember some early build guides suggested enhancing training attributes by 4 or even 5 stars. later, i seem to remember others saying to keep it to 3.

so i tend to enhance most attributes with 3 stars. but if trying to build a 4 AEQ build, do some people enhance to only 2 stars?? or even just one?

Originally posted by blitzboy
so related to this discussion. i remember some early build guides suggested enhancing training attributes by 4 or even 5 stars. later, i seem to remember others saying to keep it to 3.

so i tend to enhance most attributes with 3 stars. but if trying to build a 4 AEQ build, do some people enhance to only 2 stars?? or even just one?



all my dots are 4 AEQ and the first 4 attributes are 3 starred and the rest are 0 stars.

Something, a big thing, to consider on build and equipment is, what will the dot be doing and what position. Some positions like an elusive HB need lots of stuff, the more equipment the better. The 2AEQ completely fails on these type of builds. Whereas an Oline build for one purpose, either run blocking or pass blocking needs less equipment and fewer pieces of equipment with higher attributes will be better.

More to blitzboy's point - the rounding is weird on enhancements (quad trains) from 84+ up. Before that, there's no time where an enhancement gives no value, though the amount can vary (3* being a HUGE jump over 2* for a decent chunk of ~70-80 range, for example, probably why that 3* only advice was given).

TL;DR version, quad train rounding at 84+:
84-87: 1/3/4/5 are fine, 2* rounds down to 1* gains.
87-95: 1/2/4/5 are fine, 3* rounds down to 2* gains.
95-100: 1/3/5 are fine, 2->1* gains, 4->3* gains.

Fwiw, if you're shooting for 4AEQ, you probably can't afford more than 3*. If you're doing 3AEQ, you've got a lot more flexibility to look at 4* (or occasionally 5*), and the math is favorable as long as it's done ASAP, especially over that large 87-95 range, 4*+5* pay for themselves on your 2nd major, ofc depending on build.

Full charts from Mandy Ross, showing every type of train, and where the "pitfalls" are ->
https://sites.google.com/site/glbmandyross/training_hotspots

Originally posted by Gambler75
More to blitzboy's point - the rounding is weird on enhancements (quad trains) from 84+ up. Before that, there's no time where an enhancement gives no value, though the amount can vary (3* being a HUGE jump over 2* for a decent chunk of ~70-80 range, for example, probably why that 3* only advice was given).

TL;DR version, quad train rounding at 84+:
84-87: 1/3/4/5 are fine, 2* rounds down to 1* gains.
87-95: 1/2/4/5 are fine, 3* rounds down to 2* gains.
95-100: 1/3/5 are fine, 2->1* gains, 4->3* gains.

Fwiw, if you're shooting for 4AEQ, you probably can't afford more than 3*. If you're doing 3AEQ, you've got a lot more flexibility to look at 4* (or occasionally 5*), and the math is favorable as long as it's done ASAP, especially over that large 87-95 range, 4*+5* pay for themselves on your 2nd major, ofc depending on build.

Full charts from Mandy Ross, showing every type of train, and where the "pitfalls" are ->
https://sites.google.com/site/glbmandyross/training_hotspots


nice charts. Of course the advantage of quad training comes from early training. while you are pumping SP into that first attribute, you have four making nice gains on what are your second, third, fourth and fifth assignments which you enhanced.

Yeah I do feel some guides get a bit carried away with the early intense, while some open quad far too early.

Have to balance out the value lost of too long on intense, both in terms of gains and bonus tokens (unless making a freak speed WR, etc.) ... against having too many attributes hitting that 35-49 training valley all at the same time in the 2nd season, if you pop quad open way too early. But that's a different discussion, for another day.

Complexity can be an issue as well ... I've tried making training guides for my builds a few times, and agents tend to look at them, say WTF and ignore them.

Originally posted by Gambler75
Yeah I do feel some guides get a bit carried away with the early intense, while some open quad far too early.

Have to balance out the value lost of too long on intense, both in terms of gains and bonus tokens (unless making a freak speed WR, etc.) ... against having too many attributes hitting that 35-49 training valley all at the same time in the 2nd season, if you pop quad open way too early. But that's a different discussion, for another day.

Complexity can be an issue as well ... I've tried making training guides for my builds a few times, and agents tend to look at them, say WTF and ignore them.

I'm trying that trick out this latest crop of dots. I've done the "long term Intense' style... it worked ok but I felt my secondary skills were hurt because of it. This time I went super extreme on Multi-training and was Multi-training before the regular season started. So far so good. 3 *'s where I want... a few 2*'s on secondary skills... and I'm already racking up BT's on most of the dots. Getting 4 AEQ should be a breeze for them. What I want to see is how it changed all the Skill #'s at the end. VPB can show you so much... but it never seems to match up with the end results. Why? Probably a multitude of reasons. Changes in what you're doing along the way... training breakthroughs... mistakes along the way... who knows. Always good to just build it out and see the facts.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Originally posted by Gambler75

Yeah I do feel some guides get a bit carried away with the early intense, while some open quad far too early.

Have to balance out the value lost of too long on intense, both in terms of gains and bonus tokens (unless making a freak speed WR, etc.) ... against having too many attributes hitting that 35-49 training valley all at the same time in the 2nd season, if you pop quad open way too early. But that's a different discussion, for another day.

Complexity can be an issue as well ... I've tried making training guides for my builds a few times, and agents tend to look at them, say WTF and ignore them.

I'm trying that trick out this latest crop of dots. I've done the "long term Intense' style... it worked ok but I felt my secondary skills were hurt because of it. This time I went super extreme on Multi-training and was Multi-training before the regular season started. So far so good. 3 *'s where I want... a few 2*'s on secondary skills... and I'm already racking up BT's on most of the dots. Getting 4 AEQ should be a breeze for them. What I want to see is how it changed all the Skill #'s at the end. VPB can show you so much... but it never seems to match up with the end results. Why? Probably a multitude of reasons. Changes in what you're doing along the way... training breakthroughs... mistakes along the way... who knows. Always good to just build it out and see the facts.

I still like JD's guide