Warrior General Games

Due to another thread, I decided to end this debate with data so that everyone's misperception is rectified.

I examined Belgarath's highest Hurried/Sack game of the season. Game 3 of S8. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/133426

Hurries: 21 with Sacks: 6 on 79 attempts.

Using GLB2Scout.com (plug ), we can examine 2 plays: SG TE Drive and SB TRIP WR Posts, with 26 and 17 play callings each. SG TE Drive had a 53.8%/11.8% Hurry/Sack rate and WR Posts had a 29.4%/5.9% Hurry/Sack rate.

Here's how those plays worked out, in game order:

SG TE Drive Hurry 53.8% Sack 11.8%
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB Out
2 Man under TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB held in
2 Man under TE Out HB held in
Nickel Base TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB Out
Nickel Base TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB held in
Nickel Base TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB held in
ZEB TE Out HB Out

Summary: 26 plays - TE went out all 26. HB went out 12 times. HB held in 14 times.

SB WR Posts Hurry 29.4% Sack 5.9%
ZEB TE In HB in
ZEB TE Out HB in
ZEB TE In HB in
Nickel Base TE In HB Out
Nickel Base TE In HB in
2 Man Under TE Out HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB in
ZEB TE Out HB in
ZEB TE In HB in
ZEB TE Out HB in
ZEB TE In HB Out
ZEB TE Out HB in
ZEB TE In HB in
ZEB TE Out HB in
Nickel Base TE Out HB in
Nickel Base TE Out HB Out
2 Man Under TE Out HB in

Summary: 17 plays - TE went out 10 times. TE held in 7 times. HB went out 4 times. HB held in 13 times.

Interestingly, one of the plays were the TE was held in, the HB went out. But all other 6 times, the HB was held in too.

Tactics settings is for the QB to hold in the HB.



Final conclusion:

TE Drive had a pressure on 65% of the plays, yet the TE was never held in. WR Posts had pressure 35% of the time and the TE was held in 41%. Even with more pressure, the TE was never held in on a TE primary play. Thus, we can conclude:

TEs are never held in on plays were they are primary and the QB is rattled/blitzed and holding in the HB. That happened 14 times on TE Drive. However, the TE was held in 41% of the time on a non-TE primary route, usually resulting in the HB held in too but the HB can release while the TE is held in. The true definition of a "rattled" QB.

mhhh, so?

The fact stays (even tho you tried to neglect the fact by sonme stupid post in someone's rage thread) that rattled sucks big times.

Why? Beacause it makes basicly 3 WR Sets alsmost useless if the primary target is a WR as you may find yourself with only One (havent seen such a replay yet) or 2 (Evidence was posted here and also seen it) possible targets...Those result in a Sack most of the time cause the 2 lonely WRs are covered by too many DBs to ever get open...

I don't get what you are trying to say, the only true fix to this is to give coordinators the option to over ride rattled. You are eliminating over 75% of the playbook because you have to run TE primary plays to force your TE to go on a route.

Originally posted by peeti
mhhh, so?

The fact stays (even tho you tried to neglect the fact by sonme stupid post in someone's rage thread) that rattled sucks big times.

Why? Beacause it makes basicly 3 WR Sets alsmost useless if the primary target is a WR as you may find yourself with only One (havent seen such a replay yet) or 2 (Evidence was posted here and also seen it) possible targets...Those result in a Sack most of the time cause the 2 lonely WRs are covered by too many DBs to ever get open...

Rattled may suck as a mechanic, but you don't have to succumb to it. And I had plenty of completions on plays where the TE and HB were both held in. My comp% on WR Posts was 64.7% for an average of 15 yards per catch and 9.7 yards per attempt.

And as to your comment about it leading to a Sack "most of the time", again it's a perception that's wrong. I was only sacked once (on a HB in/ TE Out play). I didn't suffer a single sack on a TE held in play. So how is that "most of the time"?

Originally posted by Parab00n
I don't get what you are trying to say, the only true fix to this is to give coordinators the option to over ride rattled. You are eliminating over 75% of the playbook because you have to run TE primary plays to force your TE to go on a route.

I agree with you on the fix. Yes rattled cause WR primary plays to be at a disadvantage. Doesn't mean it can't be changed/ tweaked.

Though, perhaps QBs need more Heart (generally, not Belgarath) so they aren't rattled as much and thus WR primary plays wouldn't be at a disadvantage?

Belgarath is at 106 effective Heart (81+25) now with +16 more in Road games and +5 in Home games. I'll do a test again on a later season road game with high hurry and see what the data is on WR Posts for holding in the TE.

I would love for rattled to be taken out or give user ability to override. My CBs would have a crap load more sacks.

Originally posted by

Rattled may suck as a mechanic, but you don't have to succumb to it. And I had plenty of completions on plays where the TE and HB were both held in. My comp% on WR Posts was 64.7% for an average of 15 yards per catch and 9.7 yards per attempt.

And as to your comment about it leading to a Sack "most of the time", again it's a perception that's wrong. I was only sacked once (on a HB in/ TE Out play). I didn't suffer a single sack on a TE held in play. So how is that "most of the time"?

Bah, again. PLS stop only talking about your perfect plays please! First, there are plays that are more sack bound anyway (this is just stated to be complete, has nothing to with this argument) BUT the problem is not with 3 WR sets, its with 2 TE and 2 WR sets! You often get held in all: both TEs, HB/HB,FB,TE. So what then? You have one or 2 WRs running around the place. Thats a HUGE difference to your 3 WR sets. Forget them! My point is that those 3 WR sets are nearly the only useful ones if you are afraid of letting everyone held in (Besides 4 and 5 WR, but there are different probs).

You see what I mean now? Your numbers are useless, cause they result outta perfect play calls. But this game should offer you to play with more than those plays and not having to think about some stupid mechanics.

Is rattled good? Yes. But we should be able to decide, whether or not we want it and more important, WHO or HOW MANY eligible receivers get held in. I swear, if you come up with your 3 WR stats and the fckin Heart of your damn QB again, Im gonna kill you thru your PC cause that stuff begins to piss me off

Greetz

Originally posted by Parab00n
I don't get what you are trying to say, the only true fix to this is to give coordinators the option to over ride rattled. You are eliminating over 75% of the playbook because you have to run TE primary plays to force your TE to go on a route.

Coordinators know how to avoid the TE getting held in, now they have to decide what they want to do when facing a blitz heavy team.

So they can run different playbooks and different tactics for different teams. Rattled isn't as big of an issue as people make it seem. Especially when offenses are putting up like 50 points. Defense needs all the help they can get.

Originally posted by
Coordinators know how to avoid the TE getting held in, now they have to decide what they want to do when facing a blitz heavy team.

So they can run different playbooks and different tactics for different teams. Rattled isn't as big of an issue as people make it seem. Especially when offenses are putting up like 50 points. Defense needs all the help they can get.

Again...its about beeing able to choose from more formation sets. Im not saying you cannot play around it. God dman, you can. The elite passing teams show you. But the system makes all 2 WR and 2TE sets useless (or lets say less useful) in which the WRs are the primary target.

Thats the only thing I hate about it. All the other stuff is the mechanc itself. And the mechanic itself is great. Otherwise we will see perma sacks again

Offense that run the same 3 passing plays all game all season without there being a defense to reasonably stop it even if you know it is coming reminded me of this article from a couple weeks ago:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/14/when-ravens-ran-same-play-twice-patriots-figured-it-out/

"Belichick said that play by McCourty illustrated why it’s so dangerous in the NFL to run the same play twice in the same game, even if it worked the first time around."

“A lot of times I hear from the fans or sportscasters or whatever, ‘Why don’t you keep doing what was working? Why did you change it? Why didn’t you keep doing it?’ Well, that’s one of the reasons. It’s hard in this league to keep doing it against players like that. They see it the second time around an they nail it,” Belichick said.

Run data on all the 2 TE plays. Maybe my perception was just based on a small set of plays where neither TE was the primary but there have been several times both TE's have been held in and I don't use Middle Overload ever out of Big TE nor the 2 plays that are short non TE primary's for SB Big so something isn't adding up.

Speaking of primaries. Diamond Undercut has 2 primaries.

Any chance we could get a dissection of FB Primary plays? Maybe that will shed some light as to why FBs suck wind in this sim.

Originally posted by peeti
But the system makes all 2 WR and 2TE sets useless (or lets say less useful) in which the WRs are the primary target.


Could someone go through their plays and post data on this? And yes, could QB Toughness/Heart be added so we can see if it's an issue?

Originally posted by peeti
You see what I mean now? Your numbers are useless, cause they result outta perfect play calls.

If the plays are available to everyone, then how is the data useless? Stop raging. I presented data. It was an attempt at a logical discussion. If you have data to present on 2TE and 2WR do it but stop making an emotional argument.

Originally posted by peeti
But this game should offer you to play with more than those plays and not having to think about some stupid mechanics.

True and not true. The game should offer more plays or more control or some way to build players around it. All games have a "stupid mechanic" element. You always have to work around it. Name one that didn't.