Warrior General Games

I noticed that tunnel vision and shed block seem to fire almost immidiatly after the snap on some plays. Even on run plays tunnel vision can fire.
Examples:
shed block
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/59069/2487151
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/59069/2487811

tunnel vision
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/59069/2485897
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/59069/2487705

So is it possible to see both abilities to fire on the same play?

All d-linemen start off pass rushing. they have to read run like everyone else, or get engaged by an o-lineman in run block mode, which immediately switches them to run defense mode. Once they go into run defense mode, shed block can happen.

Both shed block examples have it fire before there was a handoff or before the pitch started.

So the answer is yes? If tunnel vision fires immediately on a run play shed block can still happen?

Perhaps it is possible for the lineman to read run before the actual handoff or pitch based on other information.

Originally posted by mrm708
Perhaps it is possible for the lineman to read run before the actual handoff or pitch based on other information.

no.

@OP it is possible. I've seen Dlinemen fire spin cycle on Draw plays.

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
no.

@OP it is possible. I've seen Dlinemen fire spin cycle on Draw plays.

Draw plays are designed to use pass blocking as the offensive linemans skill too though. They'll never force the D-lineman to switch to run defense mode via engaging them since they're using pass blocking. You see leverage and strong arm on Draw plays too.Originally posted by Evil Sports Agent
Both shed block examples have it fire before there was a handoff or before the pitch started.

So the answer is yes? If tunnel vision fires immediately on a run play shed block can still happen?

The handoff is when they start reading for the ability to switch to run defense mode when un-engaged. I think when a blocker hits them with run-blocking though, it immediately changes the defender into run-defender mode. So you see shed block during engaged blocks before the handoff, but tunnel vision on "not yet engaged" defenders because they've not had the switch occur.

The ultimate proof against what I'm saying would be spin cycle. If you ever see spin Cycle against any run that isn't a draw, then it'd indicate you can still be "pass-rushing" when engaged by a run-blocking lineman. Otherwise, you assume your defender is pass rushing until:

A) engaged by run-blocker

B) passes awareness check to recognize hand-off. Not sure how it works on QB rushes, but it feels like the read is immediate to switch to run defender. Can't say that I've personally seen even Tunnel Vision against a QB rush.

Frame 11 on the 4th example in the OP is the most interesting. Tunnel Vision fires on the exact frame the d-lineman gets engaged. I'd say that's good evidence of SAs firing at the start of a tick before anything else happens.

Thanks to everyone answering my queation.

I found a play, where tunnel vision and shed block fire on the same play.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/59076/2679339

So the answer to the original question is definitely: Yes!

5 minutes later I am confused.

How is that possible? http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/59076/2680421

First Shed block, than tunnel vision on a run play... So he saw the run, but because the pitch took so long he switched back to pass??? Weird!

Originally posted by Evil Sports Agent
5 minutes later I am confused.

How is that possible? http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/59076/2680421

First Shed block, than tunnel vision on a run play... So he saw the run, but because the pitch took so long he switched back to pass??? Weird!

first time I've seen that. Debunks my theory. maybe its shed block/spin cycle based on the run block engagement from the oline, but tunnel vision/closing speed based on the initial pass rush read, and blitz awareness has to fire to switch them to pursuit, regardless of the engaged block. My thought that the engaged run block automatically switches the defenders logic is definitely wrong though.

Originally posted by Galithor
first time I've seen that. Debunks my theory. maybe its shed block/spin cycle based on the run block engagement from the oline, but tunnel vision/closing speed based on the initial pass rush read, and blitz awareness has to fire to switch them to pursuit, regardless of the engaged block. My thought that the engaged run block automatically switches the defenders logic is definitely wrong though.

Unfortunately with the way blocking is set up skill wise you can't really have blocking rolls where the engaged blockers are in different modes...

Originally posted by Thunderoo
Unfortunately with the way blocking is set up skill wise you can't really have blocking rolls where the engaged blockers are in different modes...

right, and I get that. My original assumption was once the blocker engaged the defender, it outright switched the defenders logic. That's not the case though, they can still be "pass rushing" after a broken block until blitz awareness kicks in and changes their logic from pass rush to pursuit. Therefore spin-cycle and shed block aren't controlled at all by what the defenders thinking. They're likely only dictated by what sort of block is being thrown at them, regardless of what sort of read their making otherwise.