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Mike Rogers
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
...lots of common sense...


Bort has always said he wants a fine balance between what an agent can control and what a OC can control, for whatever reason.

I would guess this falls into that area, it would be a lot better for the game/OCs if Open Reciever = Pass, regardless of depth, then the OC controls the play call and progression to define his intended yards gained, and a slider per OAI input for weighting between open man to depth of completion, with the QB tactic just effecting pass quality.

But I can see how an agent who wants to build a long passer would feel screwed over by an OC.

Maybe the above with an agents tactic of Always follow OCs open man/depth of route instruction....Y/N.
But thats pretty much a band aid, and I hate them. And its bound to lead to more in fighting between owners and agents, so not a good idea.

I actually think that if coverage + distance values are reviewed and adjusted, then QBs would make sensible decisions a lot more often and this discussion would be moot. And thats probably easier to do as well.
 
Adderfist
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if QB wants to be a deep passer and is in a dink and dunk system he won't do as well as a dink and dunk QB. That should be all the incentive needed.

@enkidu - Great post. brought things forward I hadn't even thought about.
 
Rage Kinard
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Something will have to be done to help with DL pass pressure when using 3 and 4 man pass rushes, especially 4 man pass rushes vs. 2 WR sets. Under this SIM, there will be no point in sending a 4 man pass rush against a good QB (much like it is now) you will either have to use a heavy blitz or drop 8 or probably 9 into coverage.

It's only going to get worse when the overpowered archetype QBs get to upper levels and they are ahead of every other offensive/defensive player in the game because of the higher ALGs.


 
tragula
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
...
If you want to tell your QB's to 'prefer long' then the bias could be invoked. But making it basically the default setting mena sthat the SIM prefers, often ridiculously so, to wait for a longer route, instead of throwing to a completely wide open man underneath with no coverage and likely to gain even more yards than if the QB waits and then throws downfield to some guy on a streak route.

Afaik, the existing mechanism assign for each route an hot spot. Until the receiver reaches that hot spot the route risk level is increased with a factor of the QB pass priority. The prefer long setting is related to overall assigning of risk to long routes (these are trivially higher risk, so the setting suppose to allow you forcing the ball).
From my limited (and maybe wrong) experience, a QB will stay on the 1st route until it reaches the hot spot up to a maximum of set time. This is independent of the QB setting. Once the QB moved to the 2nd progression the maximum time he will dwell on a single route is seriously reduced.

On 3rd down the QB sees a high risk if the pass is not past the first down. I am not sure how this changes with pass priority.

Originally posted by Enkidu98

ALSO, OC's should have to think. Changing your progressions on a play based on when it is run (what down/field position) allows the OC to use a passing attack to steadily gain yardage by passing to the first open man regardless of the first down line.

The way you think of that is actually limiting my progression to only one options. If I put a long route in the 1st option that means I do want to let that route develop and not that skip it quickly. The way you are thinking of it make long routes only possible as a late progression (which is a limit on the OC not an upgrade)
Originally posted by Enkidu98

As it is, even when you set your slider for 'open man' the sim logic appears to favour inordinately longer routes and will not pass to the first open man. There is too much weight in the receiver calculations, it seems, to being closer to a first down line. Making a lot of the shallow crossing routes useless.

I am not sure where this is coming from. Is it possible that you mix the hot spot of a route and the 1st down marker ?
 
bhall43
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ya not sure where hes coming from as far as short crossing routes being useless due to first down line. Unless hes talking about 3rd down only.
 
Enkidu98
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There's a linked example above. QB focuses on a target as his first read and the guy is completely open, he waits an inordinately long time to pass. I see thi frequently when I watch games where the QB will shift to a wide open target but then take quite a long time to decide to throw to the player and often this involves getting further downfield or perhaps hitting the 'hot spot'.

If its hot spots, they are implemented very poorly or there needs to be an override. Personally I believe we would be better served by removing hotspots and making the QB make the pass decision much sooner when they look at a target. It may _appear_ less realistic if he flies through his progressions as people see the QB laser beam moving through his receivers very quickly but if you watch without the laser beam you'll instead likely see somethign where the QB makes more intelligent choices for his WR's because if there is an open man, he'll likely throw to him.

Certainly something has to be done to ensure this doesn't overpower the offense further and I am all for defensive coverage enhancements as well. But I dislike how difficult it is to create a real west coast sort of offense in GLB.

Essentially I would likely do something that adds to the Player and OC settings.

#1 - Shift the open man/route distance slider so the preference given to -100 and +100 is much greater. Somehwat like 'Super Elusive'. So that if you are -100 or +100 you make your throw decision much sooner in preference of your setting.

#2 - Eliminate hot spots in routes, they do not appear to be working as intended. Instead, increase the QB read speed for the throw decision. I do not believe its a bad thing if the QB makes it through his progressions twice on a play. By increasing the speed for the throw decision, you can also tweak it so that the requirements for being open are a bit tighter as well as tighten defensive coverage so its closer to Season 3ish.

#3 - Add a setting to the OAI much like custom progressions. This setting would be a _per play_ slider for favouring open Man or Route Distance. This setting works in conjunction with the players slider. In this way the OC can ensure that the preference on a play is towards what they want for their gameplan. So 1st and 10 he can emphasise just getting the ball downfield. 3rd and 7 he can emphasise long routes.

#3a - Alternatively. Instead of a slider, have 'minimum route distance' before a pass will be thrown to a target. This wouldn't be perfect but having a drop box -10 to +10 (Where +10 is favour throwing as far as possible.. with some additional logic to ensure that the first down line is involved in the throw decision on 3rd downs) so that the OC can say, set it at 2 yards and if a player reads 'open' and they are at least 2 yards from LOS the QB will throw.

#4 - Add a 'Dump Route' option in the OAI. Like a custom progression this is just a drop down box where you specify the position in the play that is the designated dump route. Where the OC can determine based on the play called a specified dump off target. So that if they are hurried or in danger they check this route, and if this route is open, they'll attempt to pass to their dump target instead of the current system where they'll throw at their current target or throw the ball away. Likely should involve a tough vision check not only for the QB, but for the pass target to ensure they noted the QB's dilemma and modified their positioning so they are able to make the catch.

#5 - Likely should consider adding better individual player and per play OAI tactics for scrambling decisions.

As it stands, it does appear the QB, no matter what their setting, seems to favour going for more yardage in target selection. It is very hard to force the pass to an underneath route early in your progressions. When it is done, it looks like the linked play in this thread where the target crosses the field, says 'i'm open' and the QB remains staring at the player and doesn't throw until they are actually in a worse place than they were prior.
 
Enkidu98
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For reference here's the play linked prior which is a good example:

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3078&pbp_id=663269

Not only is the QB reading this man in his progressions, but he indicated 'I'm Open' and the QB waits until he's in perfect position to be hammered by the LB before throwing.

A good portion of this likely has to do with the first down line marker in the play. The read decision is taking it into account when it shouldn't because the player falling forward would be enough to cross the marker.

Essentially the 1st down marker portion of the pass calculation should be removed entirely and instead placed into the hands of the Player and the OC. The player's settings Open Man/Route Distance should be a personal player preference for going to the first open receiver or a guy who is closer to (or further than) the first down marker. The OC setting, either the same slider on a per play basis or a drop down where yardage is selected, is combined with the player personal settings to ensure that the play works as called by the head coach.

Removing route distance from pass decision in the SIM logic and putting it squarely on the shoulders of the players and coordinators allows for a more realistic passing game.

As I said previously though, this also should be matched by improvements in defensive coverage. I certainly don't want an overpowered offense, but I would like the ability to play more dink and dunk/west coast type offenses.
 
Enkidu98
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Alternatively -- Maybe designate the routes short/medium/long instead of the entire play. So that the length a QB spends on his read is somewhat dependent on the routes designation. Use the 'hot spot' concept as well to enforce this.

For example: If a route is a designated 'long' route, the length of time the QB will spend on the read is much higher, so he stays with the target longer to give them a chance to get open. Also, he wont throw the ball to that route at all until after they have passed the 'hot spot' in the route.

For short routes the 'hot spot' is generally the LOS (excepting screens etc) so that the player will be considered a valid receiving target pretty much immediately and the QB makes his reads on these routes much quicker.

Just tossing ideas out to help. I'm not certain any of them are perfect, or even perfect enough. But I figure discussion of ideas can lead to even better ideas.


 
rockitsauce
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@Enkidu98: Watch this game and see if any of your concerns have been addressed. http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=3139 The AI's were setup to test the new logic around "I'm Open" becoming immediately available for throw.
 
tonnyrat
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Originally posted by rockitsauce
@Enkidu98: Watch this game and see if any of your concerns have been addressed. http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=3139 The AI's were setup to test the new logic around "I'm Open" becoming immediately available for throw.


Fwiw, there is an issue with LBs in man coverage that Bort is going to take a look at. It's currently broken on the test server.

The new Im Open fixes make the QB get rid of the ball much faster once the QB passes the initial Im Open vision check.
Example: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3138&pbp_id=677273
 
Enkidu98
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There's more to it than the I'm Open check though. Even if the player hadn't reported he was open, the QB takes too long to make the throw decision on an obviously open player.

So having more control and allowing the Player and Coaches to set their players/gameplans with a little more precision and throw the all earlier may be nice/helpful.
 
tragula
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
Alternatively -- Maybe designate the routes short/medium/long instead of the entire play. So that the length a QB spends on his read is somewhat dependent on the routes designation. Use the 'hot spot' concept as well to enforce this.


According to Bort, the hot spot is only dependent on the route and has nothing to do with the play name.


Originally posted by Enkidu98

#1 - Shift the open man/route distance slider so the preference given to -100 and +100 is much greater. Somehwat like 'Super Elusive'. So that if you are -100 or +100 you make your throw decision much sooner in preference of your setting.

Good idea

Originally posted by Enkidu98

#2 - Eliminate hot spots in routes, ...

Horrible idea
Originally posted by Enkidu98

#3 - Add a setting to the OAI much like custom progressions. This setting would be a _per play_ slider for favouring open Man or Route Distance. ....

Make sense, the only downside is making OC'ing more complicated. It is good for the xperienced OCs and bad for someone trying to learn the system.
Originally posted by Enkidu98

#3a - Alternatively. Instead of a slider, have 'minimum route distance' before a pass will be thrown to a target. ....

No, currently it is not about distance from the LOS and should not be in the future.
Originally posted by Enkidu98

#4 - Add a 'Dump Route' option in the OAI. ...

Please make it part of the code now.
Originally posted by Enkidu98

#5 - Likely should consider adding better individual player and per play OAI tactics for scrambling decisions.

Please make it part of the code now.

 
Adderfist
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I would like to see some vision by the QB and Receivers. When throwing a slant over the middle and you have your man beat, but there is a LB and SS in zone that you're running straight into, the throw shouldn't be done. On that same token, Receivers should call 'i'm open when they are running into space and have more then a step on their CB.

Basically, How 'open' is determined. In real life a single step is open. In GLB, you need 5 yards to be open.
EX. http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1266379&pbp_id=6769246

Edited by Adderfist on Nov 10, 2010 10:21:03
Edited by Adderfist on Nov 10, 2010 10:17:13
 
saintedix
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Originally posted by Adderfist
I would like to see some vision by the QB and Receivers. When throwing a slant over the middle and you have your man beat, but there is a LB and SS in zone that you're running straight into, the throw shouldn't be done. On that same token, Receivers should call 'i'm open when they are running into space and have more then a step on their CB.

Basically, How 'open' is determined. In real life a single step is open. In GLB, you need 5 yards to be open.
EX. http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1266379&pbp_id=6769246



Your replay is private Adder FYI
 
tonnyrat
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
There's more to it than the I'm Open check though. Even if the player hadn't reported he was open, the QB takes too long to make the throw decision on an obviously open player.

.


I know. I have mentioned this on the test server multiple times. It's being worked on.
 
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