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Forum > Test Server Discussion > Test Server Discussions > Rushing- Discussion about tying Rush SA's, Fakes, and BrkTackle Rolls to the Slider
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djmtott
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Please leave it as is. Screwing with how things work will screw over people that have been building for a large number of seasons.
 
EagleOtto
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x3 bonus is freaking huge, i really dislike huge multiplers like that, make it x2 max.....or whatever, the game is all about staking AEQ/VAs/SAs, and now this....


And SPIN has broken the sim this season, its sad...
 
HULK
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Originally posted by hee163
What are you smoking? Spin is waay overpowered right now. I don't have a problem with backs with good builds and a high level (8+) spin breaking a few tackles, but a lot builds that shouldn't be able to spin well (< 75 agility,<68 carrying <5 Spin) are breaking tackles multiple times per play with it.

The problem.... how is it fair that Elusive backs get so many bonuses to their SA's firing and Power backs get none? 2x fake chance AEQs, and 30% from SAs? That is pretty imbalanced imo. get rid or give power backs the same. Then balance the SAs.

I really don't want to go back to S8, but right now the running game is terrible in the opposite direction. A good elusive back gets 10 YPC, and an average one 6YPC. A good power back gets 5-6 YPC, and an average one 2 YPC. They should balance the running game at no more than 7 YPC with an elite back and a great line. The strength of (a good) running game is why we see so many blowouts - if the YPC were reduced to realistic levels we'd see less blowouts. Outside pursuit is also slightly to blame, but not entirely.


I'm with you on the bar effect though there should be a boost one side and a penalty the other - it should be smaller effect than most people are talking about, otherwise backs will get forced to the extremes too much and will all either be really elusive or really powerful with no middle ground.


Spin is NOT overpowered. It is overpowered that it gets a 4 TIMES boost based on the slider. I'm trying to avoid having that happen to Power Thru, which is more powerful. The SA itself is fine where it is.

 
HULK
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Originally posted by hee163
Ever watched a real football game. Unless you've got a really special guy in there he won't be making a lot of people miss, whereas a lot of decent running backs will break a tackle where the tackler has a poor angle.

Broken tackles should happen more often than fakes. The advantage that an elusive back is that if he makes one guy miss, he can take it to the house with his speed. A big back will have to break more tackles than the elusive back has to fake in order to perform equally. Right now Elusive backs break waay too many tackles



GLB isn't real football, its dotball.

Read the tester server posts, the goal here is multiple routes to success for HBs, and before the Spin buff, there was only 1 way.
Edited by HULK on Apr 27, 2010 04:10:48
 
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The real difference betwen elusive and power backs right now is what happens after a broken tackle. The power backs slow down so much that they get tackled immedtly again after a broken tackle. The elusive ones spins through one Defender many times without loosing any speed and take of for the big run.

We had games this season where our power backs averaged 2 broken tackle per run to get an average of 2,5 yards per carry.
 
PP
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Originally posted by HULK
PP,

You can't seriously be suggesting a buff to Power Thru, right?


If at all, I'd see it being very small. What I suggest is balancing the SAs for the plus end of the slider and then adjusting down from there...I wouldn't even pay much attention the the x1.5 and x3. those numbers are most likely too high and DON'T mean a x1.5 or x3 over the SA's CURRENT lvl, just that they'd fire # more on that end of the slider than they do in the middle, which fires # more than on the down side of the slider. I just put them out there because they're lower than the x2 & x4 we currently have on spin. That's just too much of a gap from the top to the bottom of the slider for Spin, but I think balance testing really need to show what factor it should be dropped by. No matter what is picked initially, it's likely that it would have to be adjusted.

TLdr version: the x1.5 and x3 isn't saying PT should fire 3 times more than it currently does. It's saying that at 100 to 50 power, PT should fire 3 times more than when running 50+ on the Super Elusive side, and the multiples (x1.5 & x3) are just numbers for now. Testing would need to determine the multiplier values, most likely smaller than I used.
Edited by PP on Apr 27, 2010 06:29:56
 
PP
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Originally posted by HULK
Spin is NOT overpowered. It is overpowered that it gets a 4 TIMES boost based on the slider. I'm trying to avoid having that happen to Power Thru, which is more powerful. The SA itself is fine where it is.



I tend to agree with this, in that Spin is overpowered because of the bonus and that there is no incentive NOT to run on Super Elusive for any HB. Also, because it's a tkl brker, it gets it's bonus from %BT. The end result in LOLable with every PB moving to spin and running super elusive. DB pointed this out in the beginning ( and that it should get a boost from % fake, not % BT. He got frustrated as hell over it, actually). I argued that the slider could work, but that you had to tie all the rushing SAs to it or dump the slider. It never got taken any further than just tying Spin to it, which created a massive imbalance, with only 1 way to build a HB being the result.

that's why I asked the Q&A guys to put the summary of the test server thread on this here yesterday (from my suggestion on, there are a couple pages of why we need to tone spin down before it). If something is going to happen with Spin (2 threads on the test server about it being over powered and Catch has suggested that something should be done to tone it down), ppl should at least be aware before they start too far down the road that was created this last off ssn. Will it happen? Don't know, but something very well could.
 
Enkidu98
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Alternatively I would like to see Bort consider having a different roll for a spin than a standard break tackle roll.

I think its a good idea that both trees have a break tackle move and if I were redesigning things from scratch and keeping the SA concept I would likely move headfake into the PB tree as it is an easy fake to make and the sort you can make when you are a power type runner.

Since we shouldn't/can't move headfake presently, I still think that the Break Tackle roll for Spin could be changed from the standard break tackle formula. If you make it emphasise Speed/Agility/Carrying and Vision, PB's are likely going to make the roll less frequently than Elusive backs. combobacks may make it a bit more than power backs but still shouldn't make it as frequently as Elusive backs.

That should give Agility more meaning as well as in the present system Agility really isn't as important as it should be.
 
tuba_samurai
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OP updated.
 
Meatdawg
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Originally posted by HULK
What about this:

1) Slight overall bump to stun length for HF and Juke

2) Sliders:

Slider: -100 to -50
Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder work @ 100% effectiveness
Headfake, Spin, and Juke work at 50% effectiveness.
VA: Brusier (same as today)

Slider: -49 to 49
Power Thru, Lower the Shoulder, Headfake, Juke work @ 100% effectiveness
Stiff Arm and Spin work @ 125% effectiveness
VA: Thunder and Lightning, with each point in it give a 1% boost to faking and a 2% boost to Stiff Arm and Spin

Slider 50 to 100
Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder work @ 50% effectiveness.
Spin, Headfake, and Juke work @ 100% effectiveness.
VA: Slippery: (keep same as before)

Keep Quick Feet the same, not tied to Slider.




Maybe this isn't quite right, but I feel its closer to where you should be heading.



I like this but slippery seems pointless for a fake back if it only gives 2% to break tackle and 0% to fake.
 
beenlurken
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Originally posted by TehKyou
Originally posted by Bukowski

Originally posted by TehKyou


Spins already seem rediculous. Unless there is some form of tackling slider to counter this I'm against it.


[dissappears for 3 months again]


Adjust your builds.


I already tried moving equipment around and giving my SS close to 80 tackling and 75 Strength. Spins were still the majority of his missed tackles. Problem with that was it was detrimental to his build because I took away from his speed and missed the exact same type of tackles. Yay double edge sword of futility.
Edit: suprisingly I actually like Hulks idea. Your not buffing the skills, but making them more realistic depending on the style of running.


I agree... is there even and "anti-spin" roll. In other words, if a HB's Spin SA fires is it an automatic missed tackle? I have never seen Spin activate and not result in a missed tackle.
 
Enkidu98
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Originally posted by beenlurken
I agree... is there even and "anti-spin" roll. In other words, if a HB's Spin SA fires is it an automatic missed tackle? I have never seen Spin activate and not result in a missed tackle.


Spins that fail show up as tackles.
 
gatordave25
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I have a headache.
 
blln4lyf
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Or you know, just don't use the slider for bonuses at all.

Also, 3 or 4 x the effectiveness? Best be a joke. Give it a 25% bonus at best not 300-400%..when this game going to learn.
 
PP
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Originally posted by EagleOtto
x3 bonus is freaking huge, i really dislike huge multiplers like that, make it x2 max.....or whatever, the game is all about staking AEQ/VAs/SAs, and now this....


And SPIN has broken the sim this season, its sad...


Originally posted by blln4lyf
Or you know, just don't use the slider for bonuses at all.

Also, 3 or 4 x the effectiveness? Best be a joke. Give it a 25% bonus at best not 300-400%..when this game going to learn.


I know there's a lot to read here, but come on guys. There are already 2 posts explaining what you're saying isn't the case

In the OP
Originally posted by pp
In reality, this would do that. The idea isn't to give these SAs some massive boost over what it currently is now when the slider is maxing it. It's to find the reasonable lvl when the slider and build is set to max that group, tone it down a little for the combos and tone it down more for those running on the other end. It's not applying a penalty per say, but it is resulting in one.

For example, let's say we have a pure PB....90ish str, 80 carry, 100 speed, with 11 SA, PT & LS. Running on 75 power shouldn't make PT, SA & LS fire much more than they currently do (should be a slight bump, IMO, but that's just because I don't think they're firing off quite enough right now). However, if he has 5 in spin, HF & Juke, they should all fire considerably less than they do now, since ideal firing rates for those SAs were determined by us at the elusive end of the slider.

After Eagles Post

Originally posted by PP
If at all, I'd see it being very small. What I suggest is balancing the SAs for the plus end of the slider and then adjusting down from there...I wouldn't even pay much attention the the x1.5 and x3. those numbers are most likely too high and DON'T mean a x1.5 or x3 over the SA's CURRENT lvl, just that they'd fire # more on that end of the slider than they do in the middle, which fires # more than on the down side of the slider. I just put them out there because they're lower than the x2 & x4 we currently have on spin. That's just too much of a gap from the top to the bottom of the slider for Spin, but I think balance testing really need to show what factor it should be dropped by. No matter what is picked initially, it's likely that it would have to be adjusted.

TLdr version: the x1.5 and x3 isn't saying PT should fire 3 times more than it currently does. It's saying that at 100 to 50 power, PT should fire 3 times more than when running 50+ on the Super Elusive side, and the multiples (x1.5 & x3) are just numbers for now. Testing would need to determine the multiplier values, most likely smaller than I used.


P.S. I'm actually OK with not using the slider at all. I've suggested 5-7 times as the other option on the test server already, though it's pants on head stupid for PT to be able to fire as much when running on Super Elusive as it does on 100 power....and for Juke to fire as much when running on 100 power.
Edited by PP on Apr 27, 2010 19:21:40
 
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