Discussion of possible changes to spin and tying all rush SAs to the slider.
This is merely discussion and MAY NOT necessarily be implemented.
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Originally posted by PP
1) Tie PT, LS, SA, Juke, HF & OFF to the Slider. If you don't want to put in - #s, just tone the SAs down (if still needed after going from x2 & x4 to x1.5 & x3)
HF, Juke, OFF & Spin
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x0..................x1.5.............x3
PT, SA, LS
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x3..................x1.5..............x0
So, for HF, Juke, OFF & Spin to get a 1.5 bonus, you need to be running on -49 thru 49. To get the x3 you need to be 50 thru 100. Anything lower than -49 nets 0. PT, LS, SA, higher than 49 nets 0, 49 thru -49 nets x1.5 and -50 thru -100 nets x2
2) Create a Como Back VA each point in it give a 1% boost to faking and a 1% boost to brking tkls, so long as the slider is set to in between -50 and 50.
That way you get a boost for the SAs matching the running style, but take a hit on those that don't. running on Super Elusive and being able to PT as effectively as when you're running on 51 power just makes no sense, but is the no brainer way to build a PB right now (running at least 50 elusive, jacking Spin to get that 5th way to brk tkls and swapping Bruiser for Slippery). If a change like this isn't made, only the noobs will be using Bruiser next ssn
I don't know if ALL the testers agree, but several have said yes and none no. The closest to no was w_a saying he agreed, but was concerned about our track record for balance. He has a point about that. However, I think a lot of that has to do with so often cramming the programming into the off ssn, having just me or DB test the major sim change (whatever it may be) and going live. We start now, actually have more than just 1 or 2 of us test it and we should be able to at least get it better than it is now. Personally, I think it flat out needs to be done.
The part that I think may be tougher to get everyone to agree on is that Spin should probably be tied to fake %, not brk tkl. That way Fake % could potentially boost HF, Juke, OFF (though its restrictions make it not count as much) and Spin, giving fakes 4 ways to fire (3.2ish, really, because of restrictions to OFF). % brk tkl would boost str/carry, SA, LS & PT, equaling 4 ways to brk tkls. It helps balance things.
If everyone can't/won't agree on that switch, at least you could tie Spin to both % fake & % brk tkl, but only to which ever is higher. It'd at least be better than it is now, making % fake more functional. Either way, the slider thing needs to be done, IMO
Originally posted by kurieg
Personally, I would also go back to a much smaller change and then look at it, incrementing upwards if needed. It's not like Offense isn't having a field day in the sim. I mean, jesus, 140+ points scored when two top teams meet?
My suggestion:
-100 -> 100
0 -> 2x boost for Juke, HF, Spin. I don't think OFF needs a boost at all - isn't it already kinda tied in by being a boost to the other fakes? It's not a fake in and of itself.
2x -> 0 boost for Power Through, Stiff Arm, Lower the Shoulder.
VA
Thunder and Lightning - This running back can evade the big guys and run over the little ones. +1% Fake and Break Tackle chance so long as the Running Style is set from -49 -> 49 on the slider.
I don't agree with tying Spin to % Fake gear if you make this slider change. I don't see the need to make it easier for Elusives to just focus on one AE to get all their shit to fire. You're really not nerfing Spin much at all then - you're really buffing it by giving them an added boost to the fakes (since it'll be a no brainer to double stack %Fake). I think a good, pure Elusive with double stacked %Fake, good Juke/Spin, Quick Feet + Slippery + SYM, and getting 2x on the Slider is going to continue to be a ridiculous home run hitter. Make them split their gear or continue to make trade-offs between which they buff more, the fakes or the %Break tackle.
Originally posted by kurieg
Another suggestion is just to make Slippery a %Fake boost and not a %break tackle.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
I think the slider should provide a negative if you are attempting the 'opposite' of what the slider setting is set for.
So, if you are set for power, you get a bonus to tackle breaking but a penalty to fakes etc. If you are set for Elusive running you get bonuses to the fakes and spin but a penalty to the other breaking tackle rolls.
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***THIS NEXT BIT COMES AFTER THE END OF CATCH"S POST***
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Originally posted by Mat McBriar
My issue with these sliders is that there isn't enough reason to turn away the max/mins. The gap with the bonus needs to be much much smaller. x3 is too high. I know you said you're flexible on the slider bonuses PP, but I want to make it clear that this should be a small differential when comparing say +100 and +50 on a fake-based RB.
What you're doing otherwise is balancing the SA frequencies at the top bonus, leaving elsewhere weak/underpowered. Comparatively 2.25x (bonus at +50 assuming a linear increase) and 3.0x are going to be very different, which I don't think is right. There needs to be a legit justifiable reason to use +50.
To achieve what you want, we may want to look at the bonus operating differently from -100 to -50 as compared to +50 to +100. The way I envision it:
From -100 to -50
LTS/SA/PT - linearly increasing bonus the closer you get to -100
HF/J/SP - exponentially increasing penalty the closer you get to -100
From -49 to 49
No bonus or penalty
From +50 to +100
LTS/SA/PT - exponentially increasing penalty the closer you get to +100
HF/J/SP - linearly increasing bonus the closer you get to +100
I do agree that we should alter Spin to a fake (lowering strength's influence in the formula), just labeling it as more of a "juke-spin" (fake one way, spin the other).
Originally posted by PP
yeah, I don't care what the "bonus/penalty" is, so long as it's enough to make someone with 11 PT and 11 HF think REALLY hard before deciding to go off of combo and they pay a price for it, as well as get a bonus. That's the real problem with the current setup. there's flat out absolutely no reason for every HB in the game to run on anything buy Spuer elusive, even if they only have 4 spin and 11s in PT, SA & LS. Frankly, no matter what we select to start with, I'm sure our testing will result it it needing to be tweaked anyway.
This is merely discussion and MAY NOT necessarily be implemented.
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Originally posted by PP
1) Tie PT, LS, SA, Juke, HF & OFF to the Slider. If you don't want to put in - #s, just tone the SAs down (if still needed after going from x2 & x4 to x1.5 & x3)
HF, Juke, OFF & Spin
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x0..................x1.5.............x3
PT, SA, LS
-100.....-49.....0......49.....100
x3..................x1.5..............x0
So, for HF, Juke, OFF & Spin to get a 1.5 bonus, you need to be running on -49 thru 49. To get the x3 you need to be 50 thru 100. Anything lower than -49 nets 0. PT, LS, SA, higher than 49 nets 0, 49 thru -49 nets x1.5 and -50 thru -100 nets x2
2) Create a Como Back VA each point in it give a 1% boost to faking and a 1% boost to brking tkls, so long as the slider is set to in between -50 and 50.
That way you get a boost for the SAs matching the running style, but take a hit on those that don't. running on Super Elusive and being able to PT as effectively as when you're running on 51 power just makes no sense, but is the no brainer way to build a PB right now (running at least 50 elusive, jacking Spin to get that 5th way to brk tkls and swapping Bruiser for Slippery). If a change like this isn't made, only the noobs will be using Bruiser next ssn
I don't know if ALL the testers agree, but several have said yes and none no. The closest to no was w_a saying he agreed, but was concerned about our track record for balance. He has a point about that. However, I think a lot of that has to do with so often cramming the programming into the off ssn, having just me or DB test the major sim change (whatever it may be) and going live. We start now, actually have more than just 1 or 2 of us test it and we should be able to at least get it better than it is now. Personally, I think it flat out needs to be done.
The part that I think may be tougher to get everyone to agree on is that Spin should probably be tied to fake %, not brk tkl. That way Fake % could potentially boost HF, Juke, OFF (though its restrictions make it not count as much) and Spin, giving fakes 4 ways to fire (3.2ish, really, because of restrictions to OFF). % brk tkl would boost str/carry, SA, LS & PT, equaling 4 ways to brk tkls. It helps balance things.
If everyone can't/won't agree on that switch, at least you could tie Spin to both % fake & % brk tkl, but only to which ever is higher. It'd at least be better than it is now, making % fake more functional. Either way, the slider thing needs to be done, IMO
Originally posted by kurieg
Personally, I would also go back to a much smaller change and then look at it, incrementing upwards if needed. It's not like Offense isn't having a field day in the sim. I mean, jesus, 140+ points scored when two top teams meet?
My suggestion:
-100 -> 100
0 -> 2x boost for Juke, HF, Spin. I don't think OFF needs a boost at all - isn't it already kinda tied in by being a boost to the other fakes? It's not a fake in and of itself.
2x -> 0 boost for Power Through, Stiff Arm, Lower the Shoulder.
VA
Thunder and Lightning - This running back can evade the big guys and run over the little ones. +1% Fake and Break Tackle chance so long as the Running Style is set from -49 -> 49 on the slider.
I don't agree with tying Spin to % Fake gear if you make this slider change. I don't see the need to make it easier for Elusives to just focus on one AE to get all their shit to fire. You're really not nerfing Spin much at all then - you're really buffing it by giving them an added boost to the fakes (since it'll be a no brainer to double stack %Fake). I think a good, pure Elusive with double stacked %Fake, good Juke/Spin, Quick Feet + Slippery + SYM, and getting 2x on the Slider is going to continue to be a ridiculous home run hitter. Make them split their gear or continue to make trade-offs between which they buff more, the fakes or the %Break tackle.
Originally posted by kurieg
Another suggestion is just to make Slippery a %Fake boost and not a %break tackle.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
I think the slider should provide a negative if you are attempting the 'opposite' of what the slider setting is set for.
So, if you are set for power, you get a bonus to tackle breaking but a penalty to fakes etc. If you are set for Elusive running you get bonuses to the fakes and spin but a penalty to the other breaking tackle rolls.
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***THIS NEXT BIT COMES AFTER THE END OF CATCH"S POST***
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Originally posted by Mat McBriar
My issue with these sliders is that there isn't enough reason to turn away the max/mins. The gap with the bonus needs to be much much smaller. x3 is too high. I know you said you're flexible on the slider bonuses PP, but I want to make it clear that this should be a small differential when comparing say +100 and +50 on a fake-based RB.
What you're doing otherwise is balancing the SA frequencies at the top bonus, leaving elsewhere weak/underpowered. Comparatively 2.25x (bonus at +50 assuming a linear increase) and 3.0x are going to be very different, which I don't think is right. There needs to be a legit justifiable reason to use +50.
To achieve what you want, we may want to look at the bonus operating differently from -100 to -50 as compared to +50 to +100. The way I envision it:
From -100 to -50
LTS/SA/PT - linearly increasing bonus the closer you get to -100
HF/J/SP - exponentially increasing penalty the closer you get to -100
From -49 to 49
No bonus or penalty
From +50 to +100
LTS/SA/PT - exponentially increasing penalty the closer you get to +100
HF/J/SP - linearly increasing bonus the closer you get to +100
I do agree that we should alter Spin to a fake (lowering strength's influence in the formula), just labeling it as more of a "juke-spin" (fake one way, spin the other).
Originally posted by PP
yeah, I don't care what the "bonus/penalty" is, so long as it's enough to make someone with 11 PT and 11 HF think REALLY hard before deciding to go off of combo and they pay a price for it, as well as get a bonus. That's the real problem with the current setup. there's flat out absolutely no reason for every HB in the game to run on anything buy Spuer elusive, even if they only have 4 spin and 11s in PT, SA & LS. Frankly, no matter what we select to start with, I'm sure our testing will result it it needing to be tweaked anyway.
Edited by tuba_samurai on Apr 27, 2010 08:18:48