Thread began on 3/29 regarding elusive running and evolved into a change to the running style slider impacting the bonus/penalty to special abilities.
**Not sure if the numbers stated in the bonus/penalty slide later in the thread are the actual numbers that made it into the live server. Do not see the numbers listed here as actual live server values unless confirmed by an admin.**
-------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by PP
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=2099
I didn't end up editing the WRs up for blocking. After looking at them, they're pretty normal for WRs. I did get rid of the weakest, lowest blocking WR out of WR1 & 2 for both teams, leaving all the WRs there having 40-50 str 14-40 blk. I know those aren't blocking WRs, but they are actually better than most teams have.
I did edit the 2 Scat Backs, giving them decent elusive builds. hey aren't OMG, but they aren't horrible, either. I also picked the elusive archetype for each, giving them a bonus to HF & Juke, made sure they each got a % fake piece and appropriate VAs, including SYM.
The D put in was purposefully only decent. When the blocking was there, the Elusives did very well, when it wasn't, they did very bad. They were tkled for a loss 35 times and broke that tkl in the backfield 2-3 times. As I said, they really gained their yds on big plays when the blocking was there.
All in all, I didn't hate it. that said, I think HFs and Jukes could use about a 10% boost to their occurrence. If they just fired in 1 extra play out of 10 then they do now, I think that'd be reasonable. Spins really need to happen considerably more. 1 HB had 5, another 6, another 10 and the final 3 in Spin. There were 2 Spins the entire game. In a game where it was 100% run outside on 1st & 2nd down, I'd think there should be at least 5 times that many, particularly since Spin is so expensive.
Finally, I couldn't help wondering if SYM is actually working for elusives. As I said, there were 35 tkls for a loss, and only 2-3 missed tkls in the backfield. If it is working for elusives, is it working outside the OTs? If it is, maybe the 10% bump in HF & Juke and much biggest bump in Spin would bring that # up to a more reasonable lvl.
Suggestion
bump HF & Juke occurrence up by 10%
bump Spin occurrence up 5x its current setting
check to make sure SYM is working on elusives and that it is working outside the OTs
rerun test and reevaluate
Originally posted by PP
Originally posted by Meatdawg
The problem with spin is that it is a break tackle.
Elusive backs do not break tackles. Upping spin would result in more broken spin tackles for power backs, which is what we want.
If spin really worked off just agl (I do not believe this) then it wouldn't be that big of a problem.
Assuming you mean "which is what we don't want," I agree...So make it so it fires more 4x more when on evasive running than power running???? all I know is it appears woefully under powered for the amount of points it costs. also, elusives do break plenty of tkls in r/l, they just break them by using agility to put defenders in bad positions to make tkls. For good or bad, that's what GLB has done with Spin.
Staz, I agree with much of what you're saying, but also think it's a bit late into this ssn to be trying to redefine how elusives run in order to make them more usable. Honestly, I get where you're coming from on most of your "more realistic" proposals, and honestly hope we can take that approach for next ssn. I'd REALLY like to see that happen with the pass game/pass D for next ssn. Bort has already done quite a bit of work on pathing/cut backs & such in the run game (I believe much of it was just before you got here), it's better than it was and hopefully it can get better still. However, based on the amount of work he invested in it before, I doubt we'll ever get it as realistic as we'd like. So, we most likely will have to rely on fakes, brk tkls and such to help even it out
Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Meatdawg
I think spin should work strictly off agl and take the carry/str factors out of it. The problem is that you need str/carry to break tackles. Make spin a fake and not a break tackle.
Really don't know about removing the carrying aspect...
If you do that, then I think players should have a significantly increased chance to fumble while spinning.
Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by PP
Originally posted by Bort
What if spin chance scaled with elusiveness slider? Super elusive gets say...3 times what it does now, while super power gets -3 times? Would that serve to bolster the skill in the way that we want?
I'd say make it 4 and -4 and you'd have it, and that makes more sense to me anyway. Someone trying to run on pure power isn't going to be spinning much if at all. They're going to be running over ppl
Soooooo, it'd look something like this when mapped to the slider
Power...........Balanced........Super Elusive
-4.......... -2..........0..........2..........4
Exactly what I was thinking PP.
I can try it if you want to set up an AI to test it. Just give me a few to figure it out.
Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by Catch22
Originally posted by Bort
Deathblade ran a game with it active. Might be too much. I'd like some more input from more games though, I think.
Like I said in my text, I'd lower it to -3 to 3 scale and let us test that.
I'm trying some things with allowing cutbacks and whatnot, some additions in running logic. I've made a few changes to this one play, as one to test with:
http://goallineblitz.com/images/plays/142.gif
(Single Back HB Pitch Strong)
I've taken the shackles off for the most part as far as the path goes. I'd like to see some tests run with elusive guys (and power) and see how things work out, feedback, etc.
Originally posted by PP
Observations based on 3 test games
I actually think this is p damn close to good. Because of brk tkl AEQ, the PBs are still firing more Spins than they should. However, bumping their Spin up in their build was also unrealistic. To get 8 & 9 in Spin on those 2 PBs, something else would have to give that would hurt their PB builds significantly. So, I don't see an issue with it.
Spins on elusives were reasonable, IMO. out of the elusives total of 89 outside runs, they had Spins on 20 of them. Getting spins on 22% of carries, for having 7-10 in Spin isn't unreasonable, IMO. Actually, I'd bet that's only slightly higher than how often Power Through fires, and that's a comparatively cheaper SA.
Fakes are damn near non-existent, unless heading up field, and are far from occurring too often then. I don't mind that they aren't happening often in the backfield. I think they could use a slight boost in occurrence, but can live with how they currently are.
Suggestions based on 3 test games
I'd go with the way it is currently set and turn it live. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.
If there are issues on the live server, my tests indicate it will actually be with buffing the PBs, which isn't the purpose of this. I don't believe it will be an issue. However, if it is I'd make the following change below, but wouldn't even that unless PBs start Spinning a bunch. I don't believe will be an issue, but it is the only issues I can potentially see in this change. The only reason I could even see that happening is from the boost brk tkl AEQ gives Spin, even with the penalty. We also would need to monitor the "Combo" HBs that have % brk tkl AEQ. As I wrote in the 1st test. These aren't really "combo" HBs here. They are strong Elusives.
Spins, HFs, Jukes & Open Field Fake
Power...........Balanced........Super Elusive
-6.......... -3..........0..........2..........4
Power Through, Lower Shoulder & Stiff Arm
Power...........Balanced........Super Elusive
4.......... 2..........0..........-3..........-6
Originally posted by Catch22
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Spin is an elusive move.
Hence the reason that many powerbacks go out of their way to get it.
Hence the reason it's a penalty SA for the PB archetype
That being said, Spin is a break tackle - you need strength/carrying usually at a minimum level to be able to get it to fire off consistently. It will fire off with lower strength/carrying, just not nearly as often. I think agility should play a bigger role and strength/carrying a smaller role but that's not the way it currently works.
Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Staz
Originally posted by Meatdawg
The problem is almost every power back has 70 if not 80 agl.
Elusive backs are basically speed backs. Just look at all the test builds on here and you will see.
So few elusive backs have 90+ agl because right now in this sim it is useless. (if it contributed to fake % then I would love it)
140 speed 70 agl > 120 speed 110 agl. The 140 speed back is faster, cuts better (because he is faster) and can do fakes just as well as the 110 agl.
So, basically, you're saying that elusive backs aren't very elusive, at all, but rather just speed backs with the lowest amount of agility needed to make the cuts they need to? I'd agree with you on this, too.
When I built a RB early in my GLB career, I thought that shooting for 110+ agility and 100+ speed would be the way to go. I soon realized that agility in this game just isn't what it should be. I would LOVE to see it fixed.
Pretty much.
**Not sure if the numbers stated in the bonus/penalty slide later in the thread are the actual numbers that made it into the live server. Do not see the numbers listed here as actual live server values unless confirmed by an admin.**
-------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by PP
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=2099
I didn't end up editing the WRs up for blocking. After looking at them, they're pretty normal for WRs. I did get rid of the weakest, lowest blocking WR out of WR1 & 2 for both teams, leaving all the WRs there having 40-50 str 14-40 blk. I know those aren't blocking WRs, but they are actually better than most teams have.
I did edit the 2 Scat Backs, giving them decent elusive builds. hey aren't OMG, but they aren't horrible, either. I also picked the elusive archetype for each, giving them a bonus to HF & Juke, made sure they each got a % fake piece and appropriate VAs, including SYM.
The D put in was purposefully only decent. When the blocking was there, the Elusives did very well, when it wasn't, they did very bad. They were tkled for a loss 35 times and broke that tkl in the backfield 2-3 times. As I said, they really gained their yds on big plays when the blocking was there.
All in all, I didn't hate it. that said, I think HFs and Jukes could use about a 10% boost to their occurrence. If they just fired in 1 extra play out of 10 then they do now, I think that'd be reasonable. Spins really need to happen considerably more. 1 HB had 5, another 6, another 10 and the final 3 in Spin. There were 2 Spins the entire game. In a game where it was 100% run outside on 1st & 2nd down, I'd think there should be at least 5 times that many, particularly since Spin is so expensive.
Finally, I couldn't help wondering if SYM is actually working for elusives. As I said, there were 35 tkls for a loss, and only 2-3 missed tkls in the backfield. If it is working for elusives, is it working outside the OTs? If it is, maybe the 10% bump in HF & Juke and much biggest bump in Spin would bring that # up to a more reasonable lvl.
Suggestion
bump HF & Juke occurrence up by 10%
bump Spin occurrence up 5x its current setting
check to make sure SYM is working on elusives and that it is working outside the OTs
rerun test and reevaluate
Originally posted by PP
Originally posted by Meatdawg
The problem with spin is that it is a break tackle.
Elusive backs do not break tackles. Upping spin would result in more broken spin tackles for power backs, which is what we want.
If spin really worked off just agl (I do not believe this) then it wouldn't be that big of a problem.
Assuming you mean "which is what we don't want," I agree...So make it so it fires more 4x more when on evasive running than power running???? all I know is it appears woefully under powered for the amount of points it costs. also, elusives do break plenty of tkls in r/l, they just break them by using agility to put defenders in bad positions to make tkls. For good or bad, that's what GLB has done with Spin.
Staz, I agree with much of what you're saying, but also think it's a bit late into this ssn to be trying to redefine how elusives run in order to make them more usable. Honestly, I get where you're coming from on most of your "more realistic" proposals, and honestly hope we can take that approach for next ssn. I'd REALLY like to see that happen with the pass game/pass D for next ssn. Bort has already done quite a bit of work on pathing/cut backs & such in the run game (I believe much of it was just before you got here), it's better than it was and hopefully it can get better still. However, based on the amount of work he invested in it before, I doubt we'll ever get it as realistic as we'd like. So, we most likely will have to rely on fakes, brk tkls and such to help even it out
Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Meatdawg
I think spin should work strictly off agl and take the carry/str factors out of it. The problem is that you need str/carry to break tackles. Make spin a fake and not a break tackle.
Really don't know about removing the carrying aspect...
If you do that, then I think players should have a significantly increased chance to fumble while spinning.
Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by PP
Originally posted by Bort
What if spin chance scaled with elusiveness slider? Super elusive gets say...3 times what it does now, while super power gets -3 times? Would that serve to bolster the skill in the way that we want?
I'd say make it 4 and -4 and you'd have it, and that makes more sense to me anyway. Someone trying to run on pure power isn't going to be spinning much if at all. They're going to be running over ppl
Soooooo, it'd look something like this when mapped to the slider
Power...........Balanced........Super Elusive
-4.......... -2..........0..........2..........4
Exactly what I was thinking PP.
I can try it if you want to set up an AI to test it. Just give me a few to figure it out.
Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by Catch22
Originally posted by Bort
Deathblade ran a game with it active. Might be too much. I'd like some more input from more games though, I think.
Like I said in my text, I'd lower it to -3 to 3 scale and let us test that.
I'm trying some things with allowing cutbacks and whatnot, some additions in running logic. I've made a few changes to this one play, as one to test with:
http://goallineblitz.com/images/plays/142.gif
(Single Back HB Pitch Strong)
I've taken the shackles off for the most part as far as the path goes. I'd like to see some tests run with elusive guys (and power) and see how things work out, feedback, etc.
Originally posted by PP
Observations based on 3 test games
I actually think this is p damn close to good. Because of brk tkl AEQ, the PBs are still firing more Spins than they should. However, bumping their Spin up in their build was also unrealistic. To get 8 & 9 in Spin on those 2 PBs, something else would have to give that would hurt their PB builds significantly. So, I don't see an issue with it.
Spins on elusives were reasonable, IMO. out of the elusives total of 89 outside runs, they had Spins on 20 of them. Getting spins on 22% of carries, for having 7-10 in Spin isn't unreasonable, IMO. Actually, I'd bet that's only slightly higher than how often Power Through fires, and that's a comparatively cheaper SA.
Fakes are damn near non-existent, unless heading up field, and are far from occurring too often then. I don't mind that they aren't happening often in the backfield. I think they could use a slight boost in occurrence, but can live with how they currently are.
Suggestions based on 3 test games
I'd go with the way it is currently set and turn it live. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.
If there are issues on the live server, my tests indicate it will actually be with buffing the PBs, which isn't the purpose of this. I don't believe it will be an issue. However, if it is I'd make the following change below, but wouldn't even that unless PBs start Spinning a bunch. I don't believe will be an issue, but it is the only issues I can potentially see in this change. The only reason I could even see that happening is from the boost brk tkl AEQ gives Spin, even with the penalty. We also would need to monitor the "Combo" HBs that have % brk tkl AEQ. As I wrote in the 1st test. These aren't really "combo" HBs here. They are strong Elusives.
Spins, HFs, Jukes & Open Field Fake
Power...........Balanced........Super Elusive
-6.......... -3..........0..........2..........4
Power Through, Lower Shoulder & Stiff Arm
Power...........Balanced........Super Elusive
4.......... 2..........0..........-3..........-6
Originally posted by Catch22
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Spin is an elusive move.
Hence the reason that many powerbacks go out of their way to get it.
Hence the reason it's a penalty SA for the PB archetype
That being said, Spin is a break tackle - you need strength/carrying usually at a minimum level to be able to get it to fire off consistently. It will fire off with lower strength/carrying, just not nearly as often. I think agility should play a bigger role and strength/carrying a smaller role but that's not the way it currently works.
Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Staz
Originally posted by Meatdawg
The problem is almost every power back has 70 if not 80 agl.
Elusive backs are basically speed backs. Just look at all the test builds on here and you will see.
So few elusive backs have 90+ agl because right now in this sim it is useless. (if it contributed to fake % then I would love it)
140 speed 70 agl > 120 speed 110 agl. The 140 speed back is faster, cuts better (because he is faster) and can do fakes just as well as the 110 agl.
So, basically, you're saying that elusive backs aren't very elusive, at all, but rather just speed backs with the lowest amount of agility needed to make the cuts they need to? I'd agree with you on this, too.
When I built a RB early in my GLB career, I thought that shooting for 110+ agility and 100+ speed would be the way to go. I soon realized that agility in this game just isn't what it should be. I would LOVE to see it fixed.
Pretty much.
Edited by Jethroz on Apr 6, 2010 19:39:14