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Warlock
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Originally posted by Deathblade
hint: if you make everything in the game require a counter to stop, then you may as well not even play games


Ever hear of the concept called rock/paper/scissor? Hint: Most PvP games use it.
 
Dpride59
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Originally posted by Deathblade
hint: if you make everything in the game require a counter to stop, then you may as well not even play games


If you make offense need 5-6 situational stacked vas to hit 70% completion(3-4 teams outta 2000), and you nerf first step which isn't the problem - - then the rest of the game won't even be able to play GLB. I don't think you get it. The defense simply needs to be able to get a bonus to deep passes somehow. If BH added a 2% pd per level on passes thrown over 20 yards, those triple coverage passes would be knocked down much more frequently. The actual dynamic of wr/cb interaction is fine, the biggest issue is lack of quality cb builds, and deep passing a bit too powerful bc of perfectly planned va's/aeq of wr qb - -make those deep balls a little more defensible and the triple coverage passing would be solved

Edited by David Stern on Mar 6, 2010 08:36:13
Edited by David Stern on Mar 6, 2010 07:25:55
 
PierreThomas
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Originally posted by David Stern
If you make offense need 5-6 situational stacked vas to hit 70% completion(3-4 teams outta 2000), and you nerf first step which isn't the problem - - then the rest of the game won't even be able to play GLB. I don't think you get it. The defense simply needs to be able to get a bonus to deep passes somehow. If BH added a 2% pd per level on passes thrown over 20 yards, those triple coverage passes would be knocked down much more frequently. The actual dynamic of wr/cb interaction is fine, the biggest issue is lack of quality cb builds, and deep passing a bit too powerful bc of perfectly planned va's/aeq of wr qb make those a little more defensible and the triple coverage passing would be solved



You really pretty much nailed it.
 
Saris
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The loss of stacked +% catch gear will go a long way towards reducing receptions in coverage. Not to mention that cb's are finally building more towards deflection rolls. Doing anything further would be like nerfing DE's at the same time Protector was added and o-line builds were just rounding out. That sure worked out well, let's try learning from our mistakes.
 
Dpride59
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Originally posted by Saris
The loss of stacked +% catch gear will go a long way towards reducing receptions in coverage.

This is 100% false. 1 piece of catch ball is 23% bonus from aeq, 15 clock manager when you're down is 75% catch ball bonus for 7 1/2 mn of each half. I don't think taking 11.5% off of a wr aeq if anyone even stacks 2 pieces of catch ball is as big of a deal as you think it is.
Edited by David Stern on Mar 6, 2010 10:20:13
Edited by David Stern on Mar 6, 2010 10:19:39
 
PP
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Originally posted by David Stern

This is 100% false. catch ball is 23% bonus from aeq, 15 clock manager when you're down is 75% catch ball bonus. I don't think taking 11.5% off of a wr aeq if anyone even stacks it is as big of a deal as you think it is.


Completely agree...It would help a small amount, but it's all the VAs stacked, along with the % catch and maybe even a little sticky hands, paired with a QB that has his AEQ, EQ & VAs set to throw the best pass that's a problem.

Hell, none of that really is the problem, anyway. It's the symptom. WRs can't get open for shit. So, the DB's gear had be be adjusted down several ssns ago and the WR stuff either remained the same or was buffed too, just so we could get a usable passing game. Don't get me wrong. I think the passing game is better than last ssn, but you can't change any of this without allowing the WRs to get open on a somewhat consistent basis. If you do anything to drop the catches in good single, double or trip coverage without making it so WRs can get open more, the passing game would take a tremendous hit. IMO, we simply MUST make it so the WRs can get open on a regular basis. Then we can start addressing the rest of this.
 
Dpride59
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Originally posted by PP
Completely agree...It would help a small amount, but it's all the VAs stacked, along with the % catch and maybe even a little sticky hands, paired with a QB that has his AEQ, EQ & VAs set to throw the best pass that's a problem.

Hell, none of that really is the problem, anyway. It's the symptom. WRs can't get open for shit. So, the DB's gear had be be adjusted down several ssns ago and the WR stuff either remained the same or was buffed too, just so we could get a usable passing game.

This is key, 95+ % of the game isn't playing with a usable passing game, and the wr's who're dominating aren't your avg build, they are freaks of the game/coupled with hall of fame teams, and stacked va's more than any avg user can imagine..

We're so close to a sim that is incredible, but making first step worse isn't the answer, not even close. First step isn't the reason wr's are having success, and catching passes into triple coverage 20 yards down field.
 
blln4lyf
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Originally posted by PierreThomas
Originally posted by David Stern

If you make offense need 5-6 situational stacked vas to hit 70% completion(3-4 teams outta 2000), and you nerf first step which isn't the problem - - then the rest of the game won't even be able to play GLB. I don't think you get it. The defense simply needs to be able to get a bonus to deep passes somehow. If BH added a 2% pd per level on passes thrown over 20 yards, those triple coverage passes would be knocked down much more frequently. The actual dynamic of wr/cb interaction is fine, the biggest issue is lack of quality cb builds, and deep passing a bit too powerful bc of perfectly planned va's/aeq of wr qb make those a little more defensible and the triple coverage passing would be solved



You really pretty much nailed it.


Not really true. Just like the AE nerf, it was done because it was OP'ed even with a counter. You would need to fix the current sim to allow for non stacking to do okay if a lot of the stacks were removed, but having such OP'ed stacked is not solved in any way shape or form by giving the defense the same OP'ed stacks. I think you like what you can do currently, and do not want it to go away, but if it did you would see the light.
 
Deathblade
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Originally posted by Warlock
Ever hear of the concept called rock/paper/scissor? Hint: Most PvP games use it.


hint: no they dont

find a popular PvP game where X will ALWAYS win against Y, and X is also the only way to defeat Y.
 
timthorn
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Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Warlock

Ever hear of the concept called rock/paper/scissor? Hint: Most PvP games use it.


hint: no they dont

find a popular PvP game where X will ALWAYS win against Y, and X is also the only way to defeat Y.


pong?
 
Dpride59
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URDOINGITWRONG if you're not using X always
Edited by David Stern on Mar 6, 2010 18:18:03
Edited by David Stern on Mar 6, 2010 18:17:07
 
Warlock
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Originally posted by Deathblade
hint: no they dont

find a popular PvP game where X will ALWAYS win against Y, and X is also the only way to defeat Y.


Please. Let's just exaggerate some more to try and make a point...

Most PvP in games use a rock/paper/scissor design (WoW, DAoC, WAR, GW, Starcraft, warcraft, command and conquer, team fortress, etc...). That doesn't mean that a good player won't beat a bad player, regardless of the inherent advantages given through choice of class/profession/archetype/units/equipment/etc... Some roles are designed to beat other roles. The advantages of said roles vs other roles are designed with two equally skilled players in mind, not an automatic "I win" button in every situation.
 
Saris
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Originally posted by David Stern

This is 100% false. 1 piece of catch ball is 23% bonus from aeq, 15 clock manager when you're down is 75% catch ball bonus for 7 1/2 mn of each half. I don't think taking 11.5% off of a wr aeq if anyone even stacks 2 pieces of catch ball is as big of a deal as you think it is.


I have no issue with Clock Manager being nerfed. I doubt there was a knowledgeable agent in the game who didn't think the current iteration was insanely overpowered when it was released. If the issue is receivers making too many receptions in coverage with CM active, then nerf CM, don't nerf the anti-PD mechanic.

But you can't use CM as a basis to prove that a loss of 11.5% is meaningless. CM is a highly specialized VA, which requires a team to be behind and in the final half of the 2nd and 4th quarters. It's almost as much of a reach as saying the AEQ nerf will have no impact on power backs because it's only 11.5%, however with bruiser/sym active they'd still have a 75% chance to break tackles behind the line of scrimmage.



Finaly this is to anyone who has any type of influence towards the game's direction Bort/Catch/testers, if you have an issue with some VA's/stacks fine, change them, just don't change the mechanic itself. Otherwise the only builds specifically destroyed by that type of overhaul would be the possession builds, since they're built to win rolls in traffic. I don't see why speed should be the only viable build method for wr's. I'd love to see a variety of builds, speed, elusive, and possession all having success, it adds a richness of additional strategy to the game. If speed wr's are the only builds that work, suddenly cb builds will become much more harmogonous as well. For the first 2/3's of this game's existance everyone bitched that speed was too important and that vision/catching/jumping etc weren't valuable enough, now we want to regress?
 
Deathblade
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Originally posted by Saris
Finaly this is to anyone who has any type of influence towards the game's direction Bort/Catch/testers, if you have an issue with some VA's/stacks fine, change them, just don't change the mechanic itself. Otherwise the only builds specifically destroyed by that type of overhaul would be the possession builds, since they're built to win rolls in traffic. I don't see why speed should be the only viable build method for wr's. I'd love to see a variety of builds, speed, elusive, and possession all having success, it adds a richness of additional strategy to the game. If speed wr's are the only builds that work, suddenly cb builds will become much more harmogonous as well. For the first 2/3's of this game's existance everyone bitched that speed was too important and that vision/catching/jumping etc weren't valuable enough, now we want to regress?


tbf..."possession" WRs are usually ones that are agile enough, and run their routes crisp enough to get open frequently on short yardage plays, while having the endurance to be able to take the hit, aren't they?

Possession WRs aren't "pass to me in triple coverage every play and watch me catch it" kind of receivers.
 
Barnzie
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Originally posted by Saris
Finaly this is to anyone who has any type of influence towards the game's direction Bort/Catch/testers, if you have an issue with some VA's/stacks fine, change them, just don't change the mechanic itself. Otherwise the only builds specifically destroyed by that type of overhaul would be the possession builds, since they're built to win rolls in traffic. I don't see why speed should be the only viable build method for wr's. I'd love to see a variety of builds, speed, elusive, and possession all having success, it adds a richness of additional strategy to the game. If speed wr's are the only builds that work, suddenly cb builds will become much more harmogonous as well. For the first 2/3's of this game's existance everyone bitched that speed was too important and that vision/catching/jumping etc weren't valuable enough, now we want to regress?


I think we need to open up the game. Speedsters need to be able to use their quickness to get open, then they need to get to the ball and make the catch.

Slower possession type receivers need to have a more difficult time getting away from coverage, and will therefore be more reliant on rolls vs pass defenders.

For this to work players will generally need to get worse. Defenders need to be worse at reading routes and covering receivers. Quarterbacks need to be less accurate to force receivers to slow down or reach out to get to balls.

If you force receivers to make catches in traffic and make them to rely on pvp rolls uneven bonuses will strongly influence the outcome.
 
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