Warrior General Games

Testers were invited in this thread to discuss what they see as the big issues with the current sim

The discussion is ongoing...
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Originally posted by


- Special Teams as a whole. Really requires a large overhaul. I detailed some of the bugs out through the 'Special Teams Collaboration' thread , but the mechanics of the whole return/coverage process needs to be evaluated

- Fumbles/Down by Contact:

- QBs have no ability to 'look off' defenders. Safeties and zone defenders should be cheating towards the direction the QB is looking.

- Man defenders need to be much less prone to pump fakes (they're only going to bite on a pump fake when looking at the QB), but shouldn't be able to read/cover receiver movements as well as they do. Perhaps even developing man-press and off-man coverage distinctions.

- WR routes too short (for those 'broken' plays where you have the QB out of the pocket), simultaneously there aren't really 'coverage' sacks. QBs have no problem throwing into double/triple/quadruple coverage with regularity.

- Games lack pace (slowing down when winning, speeding up when losing)

- Out of bounds and the mechanics surrounding it (running out of bounds, being pushed out of bounds, etc.)

- Acceleration. First Step needing a nerf in conjunction with agility needing more of an importance in acceleration (imo). Acceleration tends to be too much of a product of speed + weight + First Step.

- Max and minimum limits on attributes. I.E. the max effect of speed (think 150 speed) is too high while the min effect (think 7 speed) is too low. The range on many attributes needs to be shrunk. Not that I don't want build diversity, but we have some HUGE ranges.

- Mechanics behind faking. Players just 'falling down' is a bit shallow. Faking should cause losses of speed, wrong movements, etc. Likewise every player should have a base fake chance (meaning you can Juke/Head Fake even w/o the SA).

- Mechanics behind pump faking. Players shouldn't freeze. Losses of speed, wrong movements, wrong jumps, etc. would be more appropriate. Full out freezing is silly.

- FB/pulling guard 'lead blocking'. Players often look 'lost' or make some crazy cuts to deal w/ D-Line (they need to find favorable targets to block without having eyes in the back of their head where they turn 180 degrees for D-Line).


And while it's not directly a sim issue, I am a strong supporter of changing the 'norm' of gameplanning from the current setup to more of an intermediate AI. GLB tends to restrict its market to those willing to put in hours of commitment. Basically through the 'hardcore' leagues idea we'd separate out the hardcore gamers while making the regular leagues more aimed at an average user (w/ the addition of intermediate AIs). I can go further into that if necessary.
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Originally posted by
- just off the top of my head from the 2 tests I ran

-OT blocking angles seem unrealistic (or it could be DE disengagement issues). Either way Combo/Speed DE's were getting held up/prevented from causing pressure and limiting their effectiveness

-TE bump to LE is way too aggressive- it literally pushes the LE 2 yards back and completely out of the play.
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Originally posted by
Overload blitzes make certain formations unusable.
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Originally posted by

The biggest things I really think would be helpful right now are the following:

--A fundamentally different mechanism for passing
QBs and WRs should have some sort of synergy. QBs should be able to anticipate cuts, not wait until the WR is wide open, then throw into future coverage. This still happens, and it still looks crappy...despite the fact that the overall passing game balance is fine (might even be a bit strong).

--Fix the broken plays, and expand the playbook.
Strong I and Proset have several very good plays, but also lack variety and have several plays that are fundamentally broken.
Weak I is even worse, and 3 WR shotgun is very marginal.

Singleback and I-form are the only two fully supported formations right now.

--O-line logic
- I do think there remain some issues here that will come out (as usual) in the playoffs.

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Originally posted by
Originally posted by

- Max and minimum limits on attributes. I.E. the max effect of speed (think 150 speed) is too high while the min effect (think 7 speed) is too low. The range on many attributes needs to be shrunk. Not that I don't want build diversity, but we have some HUGE ranges.Problem with that is...is that it makes a system where you may as well just spend every single SP in one area. If the 7 speed used in your example is enough to get by...why would O-Line or DT's spend a single point there rather than just pump strength and agility?

It would also devalue builds. If 7 speed is "enough" when facing 150 speed players...what is the point? Obviously, that is an extreme example, but same concept regardless. And that's not even mentioning that attributes that should have MORE of an impact than they currently do.

Originally posted by
Agreed...I actually think there is generally a bigger problem with very low attributes working too well than with very high ones being unbalancing....and of course fixing the problem with low attributes would naturally balance the very high ones.


Originally posted by
I don't really think the extreme is a reasonable example. Using current values as actual numbers, if the range was more like 30 to 120, speed would be much more acceptable, imo. That's a minor adjustment that would go far.

I don't see how it would devalue builds or cause you to spend your attributes in a single area.


Originally posted by
O-Line can operate fairly well with 60 speed currently.

If you make 50 equal to 60, and make the D-Line's 100 speed equal to 90....then OL with 45 speed will function like they currently do with 60. Going over that isn't going to help a lot, so what do you do? Take strength an extra cap.

Originally posted by
In fact, the reason we have extremely lopsided builds at the moment is because people can skate by with low/medium values in attributes (ok, ok, and EQ), and hardly suffer from it. further devaluing attributes will just make the problem larger.
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Originally posted by
Major problems with the Sim:

1) Lack of teamwork. Dunno if you wanted the hard stuff, but Coverage and Blocking are major teamwork areas in football, and GLB suffers in both. Coverage has been somewhat disguised by the lack of any semblance of QB intelligence in making "open man" decisions. Blocking has been exposed over and over. It has to do with knowing where you have help and where you don't. The wrinkles are reading the opposition, but right now a CB reacts the same regardless of whether there's a Cover shell or not.

2) Speed/Acceleration curve. It's retarded.

3) The EQ bonuses shattering the Skill point system. We've got to make Speedster WRs base Speed ALG's lower than linemen? Really? This isn't a red flag to everyone that there's a massive problem?
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Originally posted by Catch22
in my opinion (just offering these for discussion), the biggest problems are some old issues:

1) run/pass blocking - it's better but still needs work
2) secondary attributes not having enough of an effect - we have a thread discussing this in depth, it's something we need to look at more closely and do something about
3) Lead blocking by FB's and to a lesser extent TE's
4) DL winning way too many matchups against the OL in the run game - you can run a 3-4 man line with the back 7-8 playing off and the 3-4 routinely will win the battle
5) Making the passing game more realistic (as discussed in this thread already)
6) Lack of plays for all formations - being addressed but something we need to push to completion
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Originally posted by
No direct mechanism for a HB to actually follow his blockers, no mechanism for a HB NOT to be at full speed on purpose. HBs with "patience" are described as such because they wait for holes to open up and follow their blocks, and if their blocks are slow to develop they wait for them. As I have said before, HBs on GLB are either at full speed or trying to get to full speed 100% of the time. This is not realistic.

Originally posted by Catch22
Not possible to make backs patient though (actually something Bort and I just touched on in a run blocking test we're doing right now here on the test server). We have to remember that GLB can't always be realistic because of programming limitations.
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Originally posted by
Small, but possibly worth mentioning.

I think progressions still need a bit more work. It seems that in the WL, QBs rarely look past the first progression or two. Maybe make hotspots in routes, after which the QB will look at the next player? I don't know...but a lot of passes, the QB won't even look at any other receiver than the first on the progression list.

Originally posted by PP
I think that's the result of pass rush pressure. When my OL holds up, the QB gets to his 3rd read more often than not, and occasionally even to his 4th read. Either that or the OC is forcing the ball to 1 WRing target.
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Originally posted by PP
I don't have much time, but here's mine, off the top of my head:

Deep balls are too easy to complete vs short and medium

Double & trip coverage give up too many completions, so does tight single coverage

Should be at least over under for double covering WRs and inside outside would be a nice option too

The way CBs jump routes is stinky, no matter how you look at it

QB target selection could use some refinement

If PDs are improved, the WRs ability to get open will need to be too.

Pulling Gs and lead blocking in general is better, but still needs attention

The amount of broken tkls against inferior, yet legit teams can get p ridiculous...If there was some way to tone it down against the blah teams, but leave it as is against more equal teams, that'd be nice. My PB shouldn't be breaking 4-6 tkls on 1 run against other comparable lvled APL teams, even if their dots are rather poor builds
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Originally posted by
Sim issues needing attention, imo are as follows:

1. The ability for a receiver to catch a ball after it's been deflected & being able to pass into double and triple coverage with success.
2. KO unit blocking is scattered at best and at times guys don't even lay a body on anyone.
3. O-Line/D-Line interaction, specifically in regards to run blocking.
4. Making pass blocking O-lineman a better option for pass blocking in lieu of the run blocking archetype.
5. Creating a greater sense of need for secondary attributes is critical at this stage of the game.

Also, I agree that longer plateaus are a must at this point, working as hard as a team has to in order to get to the WL or even Pro and then have to retire a majority of the team and recruit half a roster is not fun at all. I enjoy recruiting, but not to replace 20-25 guys year in and year out. Additionally, I love [the] idea for a coordinator specific playbook, this would be a huge hit with all of GLB, plus it would improve the level of competition as well, I won't coordinate more than a couple teams at a time just for the reasons mentioned.



Originally posted by
#1. The entire Coverage/Receiver interaction needs some work. The issues you have there are part of it, but you also have CB's jumping 10 routes a game and completely whiffing on the ball about a third of the time. When he does get ball, half the time the receiver catches it anyway. Playing good coverage or bad coverage really doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in the end result of the play. I see just as many CB's that get beat run up and make a deflection out of nowhere with Ball Hawk as I do deflections where the CB had good position. The whole dynamic is somewhat out of kilter.
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Originally posted by
Passing: No timing, leading sucks, QB's don't know the routes and read where WRs WILL be. Needs pre-snap reads to recognize coverage

Rushing: The way the SAs fire needs work, and we need to adjust the way ball carriers react to blocks and defensive player's positioning.

Blocking: Pass Blocking needs work. OL needs to do some "pre-snap reads" on defenders to adjust blocking assignments, and there needs to be less double teaming a defender that doesn't need to be double teamed.

Route Running: WRs know the routes, QBs know the routes, defenders don't. High agility WRs should be able to get more separation right after the cut in his route, and mix it with QB timing, and that's the ideal place for the pass to be thrown

Coverage: Defenders need to be on the receiver's inside hip, not in front of him. Man should play the receiver, zone should play the ball. If you play the ball, you get beat on pump fakes and if you play the man, you get faked less. Also, zone reacts to the throw quicker than man. Man coverage should not react the instant the QB starts his throwing motion

Returns: There is absolutely not blocking scheme, wedges fire instantly instead of waiting for the returner to catch it, punt return units and coverage units just run aimlessly downfield, while the blockers don't really set up any "walls".
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Originally posted by Catch22
Another thing I've seen that I forgot in my post was chipping - seems like it needs an adjustment (either knocks player too far or the chips are taking too long and preventing the receiver from running their route).
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Originally posted by Catch22
OK here is what I am thinking we need to focus on. I'm trying to limit it to a certain number because Bort only has so much time in the day.

Major Issues That Need Immediate Attention

Secondary Attributes need to have more meaning
Run Game - Defensive line is overpowered against the offensive line in the run game
Pump Fake OP'ed - either need to nerf it or change how it works
Improving the passing game (giving the QB the ability to time routes/look off defenders) - this includes fixing unrealistic things like deep balls being easier to complete than shorter passes at times and WR's making catches routinely in double/triple coverage and tight man to man coverage.
Coverage issues (especially LB'ers)

Issues That Should Be Looked At If Time Permits

Special Teams
Route Completion Bug
Chipping too powerful
Expand the playbook - fix/get rid of plays that are broken ineffective
Speed/Acceleration Curve - discussed before but probably something we should revisit seriously
Kickoff distance
Nerf Mentor stacking until it is removed

How about linebackers being omnipotent? Theres very little to any hesitation on a run vs a pass play, and all linebackers have the speed to cover the fastest offensive players and the AEQ/SAs/VAs to stop the run game. there's no tradeoff. no rock paper scissors. a good linebacker is the dynamite that blows up rock, paper, and scissors.

Sidenote - am I the only one who reads these and tries to figure out what tester said what? I think I know which quote is deathblade's, and I have a hunch on a few others.

I'll give you an internet high five if you can figure mine out.

Originally posted by pottsman
Sidenote - am I the only one who reads these and tries to figure out what tester said what? I think I know which quote is deathblade's, and I have a hunch on a few others.

Deathblade is easy to spot

I noticed several comments about QB-WR-DB interaction. Short passes are too difficult to complete, too many completions in coverage, and receivers aren't getting open often enough.

I think the main problem is with defenders reacting too quickly to receivers making their cuts. Defenders don't know where the routes go. They may get clues based on different reads but that's about it. In GLB the ability to read routes should translate to the vision attribute. Defenders with high vision and agility may be able to regularly maintain tight coverage, but other defenders should often allow their receiver to gain a step or two of separation after a cut.

Also, as mentioned, there should be different coverage behaviour in man and zone coverages. In man coverage on a pass play a defender's main responsibility is to prevent his receiver from catching the ball. In zone a defender has more players to read and defend. The zone defender is therefore more likely to react quickly to the ball, but less likely to lock in on a receiver with tight coverage if there are multiple receivers passing near his zone.

Of course balance needs to be maintained to ensure there aren't too many easy short completions.

Coverage mechanics (how things work) are just flawed all around. I think if we fix coverage mechanics, then WR/QB interaction, then pass blocking, that would seriously help the passing game achieve realistic results, and not just realistic "stats".

Then, if we fix defensive pathing, then run blocking logic, then the way runners interact with blockers (setting up blocks, making cuts, hitting holes, maybe even being able to add zone blocking), and finally top it off with an adjustment to the way SA's fire, and the rushing game would be pretty solid.

Then, we could turn to special teams and the big errors there. Kick off blocking is horrendous and has no logic. Punt returns have absolutely no blocking scheme. Kick off units also have some funky things going on, and punt units are weird as well. We'd definitely need to work on that. Perhaps could move it above the run game, but I think the pass game takes priority.


When I mentioned the SAs needing work on HOW they fire:
Originally posted by Staz

I think that's a sim issue with how SAs activate:


Lower the Shoulder - Should only activate when a defender is coming from directly left of the dot, directly right of the dot, or anything in between, towards the front.

Stiff Arm - Should be able to activate if the defender is coming from about 135 degrees, either way, from directly forward on the dot.

Power Through - Should be either directly in front of the dot, or slightly off (45 degrees either way)

Spin - A real spin move happens when the defender and the ball carrier meet head on, and the ball carrier step one way and then spins the opposite, or spins off the defender in general. Another way to have the spin move activate is if the defender is over pursuing at an angle, and the ball carrier spins back. Should be pretty damn unlikely to do two spin moves within a few yards of each other (you should seriously be slowed down if you do)

Juke - Defender needs to be coming from directly in front of you or at an angle from the front. Hard to juke somebody from the side or if he'd behind you, same should go for Head Fake.

Originally posted by tuba_samurai
Testers were invited in this thread to discuss what they see as the big issues with the current sim

The discussion is ongoing...
**********************************************************

Originally posted by



- WR routes too short (for those 'broken' plays where you have the QB out of the pocket), simultaneously there aren't really 'coverage' sacks. QBs have no problem throwing into double/triple/quadruple coverage with regularity.

I think that must have something to do with QB settings, we have had to switch the QB throw-away threshold to conservative because 90% of the sacks we were taking were because nobody was open and the QB would pull the ball down (Vision line would go off) and attempt to scramble even though he resembles a statue and had QB scramble set to almost never.

The game we changed to conservative, we had 1 throw away and still 1 coverage sack.

Originally posted by Staz
I'll give you an internet high five if you can figure mine out.

cuz im awesome

Originally posted by Deathblade
cuz im awesome

Cheater.

Originally posted by Staz
I think that's a sim issue with how SAs activate:


Lower the Shoulder - Should only activate when a defender is coming from directly left of the dot, directly right of the dot, or anything in between, towards the front.

Stiff Arm - Should be able to activate if the defender is coming from about 135 degrees, either way, from directly forward on the dot.

Power Through - Should be either directly in front of the dot, or slightly off (45 degrees either way)

Spin - A real spin move happens when the defender and the ball carrier meet head on, and the ball carrier step one way and then spins the opposite, or spins off the defender in general. Another way to have the spin move activate is if the defender is over pursuing at an angle, and the ball carrier spins back. Should be pretty damn unlikely to do two spin moves within a few yards of each other (you should seriously be slowed down if you do)

Juke - Defender needs to be coming from directly in front of you or at an angle from the front. Hard to juke somebody from the side or if he'd behind you, same should go for Head Fake.

I like the thought process behind this, but this should be part of the SA overhaul. I would like to see situational abilities added for all positions. Like giving DT/DL SAs such as "rip", "swim", "spin", etc... I would break down each position to have a "moves" tree and a "position" tree. Position tree SAs would be stuff like tunnel vision and break thru, things that are situational to positions and not so much actual moves.

I would make Lower the shoulder work from the front arc. Stiff arm from the side arcs. Power thru from the side and front arcs, but only good vs multiple tacklers. Spin from the side and front arcs, but only good vs a single tackler. Juke from the side and front arcs, but only good vs a single tackler (different effect than a broken tackle). Head fake from only the front arc, but good vs multiple tacklers. Etc... Each SA should be different in situation and effect, giving each a pro and con... allowing specialists and balanced builds viability.

This would turn SAs into situational abilities and/or special moves, kind of how they should have been in the first place (like most gaming systems do special abilities, either giving new moves or making moves better).

I could break down a rough draft of a new SA system, based on my actual football experience (been playing the sport for over 20 years), if you think this idea has merit. Breaking things down by situation/effect and outline the tree set-ups based on how difficult the SAs are to master.

I personally think this is a fantastic idea. I really don't see any downside in eliminating XP all together and just going with a daily XP for everyone.

Originally posted by tuba_samurai

Originally posted by

- Acceleration. First Step needing a nerf in conjunction with agility needing more of an importance in acceleration (imo). Acceleration tends to be too much of a product of speed + weight + First Step.


How is this one being looking at in terms the spped boost following a broken block? RIght now it seems that the majority of DE sacks come off of this boost, while DT's rarely see the boost like DE's. Yes I understand FS and TV play a roll

It will be interesting to see if by altering FS and agility importance in acceleration, if DT's will see an increase sacks.

Originally posted by tuba_samurai

Originally posted by

-OT blocking angles seem unrealistic (or it could be DE disengagement issues). Either way Combo/Speed DE's were getting held up/prevented from causing pressure and limiting their effectiveness


If this one refers to being blocked in the back, I would like to see this one extented out to HB/FB.

Major Issues That Need Immediate Attention

Run Game - Defensive line is overpowered against the offensive line in the run game
Pump Fake OP'ed - either need to nerf it or change how it works
Improving the passing game (giving the QB the ability to time routes/look off defenders) - this includes fixing unrealistic things like deep balls being easier to complete than shorter passes at times and WR's making catches routinely in double/triple coverage and tight man to man coverage.
Coverage issues (especially LB'ers)

I have to wonder if some of these "problems" are a result of specific tactics and build. For example, I've not seen any running game that is overpowering the defensive line when the defense is set to stop the run. My Backs seem to romp when it's a passing situation, but in short yardage it's a job to get a yard even considering my team is build for short yards. Of course I'm only watching two levels, cap30 and AA.

Pump fake... maybe this is an issue at higher levels, but at cap30 or AA, I've not seen any QB destroying a pass defense because of fakes.

As for the passing game in general, logic says, if any one QB has time to complete pass then there is time for them all to complete pass. If they aren't then it's something specific being done in tactics or builds. Sorry guys it's not the SIM. Logic doesn't have favorites.

One caveat, there are a lot of levels to the game. Testing at a fix or finding something that looks broken in one level may not be the same in another level. I know I have to adjust my defense every season to account for the speed changes of higher level players.

I've Beta tested many games and seen some changes because the "loudest" or most influential voices " wanted" changes. I used the word wanted, because if it's not a balance issue it probably doesn't need changed.

Originally posted by

Originally posted by
Small, but possibly worth mentioning.

I think progressions still need a bit more work. It seems that in the WL, QBs rarely look past the first progression or two. Maybe make hotspots in routes, after which the QB will look at the next player? I don't know...but a lot of passes, the QB won't even look at any other receiver than the first on the progression list.

Originally posted by PP
I think that's the result of pass rush pressure. When my OL holds up, the QB gets to his 3rd read more often than not, and occasionally even to his 4th read. Either that or the OC is forcing the ball to 1 WRing target.


The QB should have a better sense of the pocket. Currently a QB will pass on an open receiver (or wait until he is covered) and then he feel pressure and throw into double coverage. I changes the pass priority setting (for 2 different QBs on two team) from +40 to -70 during the season and could not find a sweet spot.

QBs should have some sense when the pocket is closing allowing them to make a few quick reads. Currently they just feel the pressure too late and have no choice to throw the ball at the WR they are looking at.