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Tigerbait0307
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Originally posted by tautology

QBs do have the ability to pre-empt progressions to hit a wide open man, but it requires a successful vision check. I have found that vision needs to be around 85 for this to even begin to happen, and higher is better in that regard.

I am not sure, but I think an "open man" bias may help this along a bit.

edit: Also, one thing that can be a bit deceiving...a QB rolls through his progressions, but will throw the ball when he feels pressure. So it may be the first read was lightly covered, but still did not hit the QBs threshold for throwing the ball, and the second read is more heavily covered but the QB feels pressure and makes the throw anyway.



Thank You Taut. Its good to know the QB can deviate from his progressions. This is after the ball is snapped right?
 
tautology
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Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
Thank You Taut. Its good to know the QB can deviate from his progressions. This is after the ball is snapped right?


Yep. If the defense leaves a man totally uncovered and a blitz is on for instance, a high vision QB has a decent chance of hitting him right off the snap and ignoring the progressions entirely.

If a man pops wide open in the middle of a play, a QB can disrupt the progression and target him immediately. I have seen it happen enough to know it works, though it is far from automatic even with 100ish vision.

I should note that a player needs to be in the progression *somewhere* however....if you didn't put a player in the progression for some reason, he can run all lonesome to the endzone and never get a look
Edited by tautology on Feb 21, 2010 21:08:13
 
Tigerbait0307
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Originally posted by tautology
Yep. If the defense leaves a man totally uncovered and a blitz is on for instance, a high vision QB has a decent chance of hitting him right off the snap and ignoring the progressions entirely.

If a man pops wide open in the middle of a play, a QB can disrupt the progression and target him immediately. I have seen it happen enough to know it works, though it is far from automatic even with 100ish vision.

I should note that a player needs to be in the progression *somewhere* however....if you didn't put a player in the progression for some reason, he can run all lonesome to the endzone and never get a look


I really think if the vision check for this was lowered it would help the passing game a lot. Keep in mind this doesn't mean the WR will catch the pass or that it will even be a good pass.

What do you think Taut? Is this something being discussed on the test server forum?
 
mwindle
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Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
No offense but I disagree. His first read was the TE. So if we are looking for realism in the game. A good QB would have noticed the SS on the TE and immediatly known that WR 2 was one on one with no help over the top.

Forget that though. I really think that if QBs have the ability to read coverage better the passing game would be improved. I know this is GLB and not really football. However there must be a way for the sim to recognize that there are 2 defenders closer to WR A than WR B. So WR B is the logical option. This doesn't mean the WR will catch it or that the CB won't deflect of intercept it. This just means the QB makes the right decision with the football.

I hope this makes sence


This is the answer here....The Qb needs to have "logic" or intelligence so to say. It could be tied to vis. Now the point is right to some extent that if you looked at the NFL about 75% of your QBs don't make that read automatice. A number may never see it and that's why they are 3rd backups. The 2nd backups only make that read once in awhile. Your bottom of the 1st stringers make it sometimes. The next tier up make it most of the time. And guys like TOm Brady, Patton Manning, Carson Palmer, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers make this kind of read virtually 100% because they have excellent vision and field intelligence. Like you said they wouldn't have to see the WR. THey would see the SS on the TE and make the throw blind. That's why sometimes you can set up a CB or LB to spy in that area and catch the QB cheating and not looking before just firing that one to the WR2.

Also would a real life progression really have went from the TE middle right to WR1 far left? Where is the 3rd read? All the way back to the WR2? THis is a problem too. A lot of the reads are like this. Why don't they put what play was run in the replay text so we could adjust the progressions more easily. These reads should be close together. The next one shouldn't be clear across the field. You need at least 3 quick reads on every pass play. THen you need a checkdown man that you can dump off too if pressured early. GLB I think kind of sorta makes the HB the checkdown man everytime. BUt he doesn't run a route every time. And anybody can be the checkdown guy. THe HB, FB, TE, WR, anyone.
 
tautology
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Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
I really think if the vision check for this was lowered it would help the passing game a lot. Keep in mind this doesn't mean the WR will catch the pass or that it will even be a good pass.

What do you think Taut? Is this something being discussed on the test server forum?


Personally I think Mentor needs to go away so that we can narrow in on a reasonable vision range for this sort of thing without double-mentored QBs breaking the curve....but that's just me.
 
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Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by Tigerbait0307

I really think if the vision check for this was lowered it would help the passing game a lot. Keep in mind this doesn't mean the WR will catch the pass or that it will even be a good pass.

What do you think Taut? Is this something being discussed on the test server forum?


Personally I think Mentor needs to go away so that we can narrow in on a reasonable vision range for this sort of thing without double-mentored QBs breaking the curve....but that's just me.


I agree.
 
nexill
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Originally posted by tautology
Yep. If the defense leaves a man totally uncovered and a blitz is on for instance, a high vision QB has a decent chance of hitting him right off the snap and ignoring the progressions entirely.

If a man pops wide open in the middle of a play, a QB can disrupt the progression and target him immediately. I have seen it happen enough to know it works, though it is far from automatic even with 100ish vision.

I should note that a player needs to be in the progression *somewhere* however....if you didn't put a player in the progression for some reason, he can run all lonesome to the endzone and never get a look


I definitely think that this is how it works, and how it really should stay. It's one thing to have the QB automatically recognize if the defense literally leaves a man wide open, like forgets to cover him. It's another to have a QB interrupt his progressions because it looks like a guy has a favorable matchup.

If we define 1 yard of separation as being wide open and want QBs to break progression for that, then progression goes out the window...QBs will break it all the time. But what if the defense is actually 1 yard in front of the WR, like if the WR is running a drag over the middle and is about to enter the MLB's zone? Well, of course teh QB should not consider that to be open...his man is about to be covered! So then we're asking QBs to make automatic reads and break progression by not only judging their WR and the primary guy covering him, but every defensive dot in the area...without even looking. Making that judgment while checking the WR absolutely should happen, but making that judgment while on the other side of the field is too powerful. In my opinion.

It also really lessens the cool new ability to set progressions. Based on scouting, OCs can really target certain areas of the defense to pick on...they can anticipate where they're going to get 1v1 coverage or have potentially wide open guys, and make sure they check with those players early in the play. Really rewards guys who are on the ball with their detailed tactics.
 
coyote16
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Do you have this play if favorite tag?
 
Tigerbait0307
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Originally posted by coyote16
Do you have this play if favorite tag?


What? Not sure what you are asking.
 
TrevJo
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tbh I I'm not sure it makes sense for a QB to break his progressions to target a wide-open man unless that man is already in his line of sight. Pre-snap reads are certainly a big part of real quarterbacking, but I'm not sure how that would fit in with the current sim.

What I do think is that the timing of progressions should be more variable. First-season dots with 20 vision seem to cycle through their progressions just as quickly as 100 vision dots. That is totally broken imo. Right now it seems like higher vision QBs are probably making a better risk assessment of the guy they are looking at, but a lot of times that backfires (as mentioned earlier in the thread) because they pass up a medium risk first progression and then get hurried while looking at a higher risk second progression.
And by variable I don't just mean faster for high-vision QBs. I also mean that high-vision QBs should be able to sometimes recognize that a guy is about to break open and stay on him a moment longer, for example the WR3 on this play: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1001621&pbp_id=3058591

I don't like the fact that a QB's new pre-snap read this season is to call in extra blockers. Having more guys to block is not always what you want against a blitz, most of all you want someone open.
If the defense is sending more pass rushers than there are blockers, I'd like to see high-vision QBs that successfully recognize the blitz go through their reads faster (especially if they have high confidence also).
On the flipside, if the QB sees the defense dropping 8 guys into coverage, he should consider anyone in single coverage to be a lower risk assessment than usual. In other words, he should be less likely to check off his single-covered primary receiver knowing that his other reads are likely double-covered.
 
foofighter24
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Originally posted by TrevJo
tbh I I'm not sure it makes sense for a QB to break his progressions to target a wide-open man unless that man is already in his line of sight. Pre-snap reads are certainly a big part of real quarterbacking, but I'm not sure how that would fit in with the current sim.


I had made this suggestion before. The QB should be able to recognize with a relatively low vision check that a player has either a clear positional mismatch (for instance, LB on WR) or that no one is in position to cover a player, prior to the snap.
Edited by foofighter24 on Feb 22, 2010 14:21:38
 
InRomoWeTrust
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Originally posted by foofighter24
or that no one is in position to cover a player, prior to the snap.


Already happens (pre-snap) in GLB.
 
Bukowski
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Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
Originally posted by tautology

Yep. If the defense leaves a man totally uncovered and a blitz is on for instance, a high vision QB has a decent chance of hitting him right off the snap and ignoring the progressions entirely.

If a man pops wide open in the middle of a play, a QB can disrupt the progression and target him immediately. I have seen it happen enough to know it works, though it is far from automatic even with 100ish vision.

I should note that a player needs to be in the progression *somewhere* however....if you didn't put a player in the progression for some reason, he can run all lonesome to the endzone and never get a look


I really think if the vision check for this was lowered it would help the passing game a lot. Keep in mind this doesn't mean the WR will catch the pass or that it will even be a good pass.

What do you think Taut? Is this something being discussed on the test server forum?


I agree.

If a QB needs 85 Vision just to be able to perform this basic task, it just further penalizes lower-level passing, which is already damn near impossible.
 
Dpride59
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Originally posted by tautology
Personally I think Mentor needs to go away so that we can narrow in on a reasonable vision range for this sort of thing without double-mentored QBs breaking the curve....but that's just me.

You don't even have a mentor qb, you must not value it as much as everyone else? Or you want it to go away because you didn't plan for it? Either way having mentor isn't the problem, the problem is Bort balances the sim so if you have 25% mentor bonus/top 1% build in the game he sets it so you are at best a 65% completion qb, the problem with this is, you're 65-70% completion with Peyton Manning throwing to Jerry Rice in his prime (Yorke/Obrien) So you have Bort balancing things to make the top qb/wr combo in the game around 65% where does that leave the rest of GLB? O did I mention he is 65% vs mostly div I/II talent 80% of the time? How is that for fucking balance. Lets balance the sim for the best players in the game, vs weaklings
Edited by David Stern on Feb 23, 2010 15:08:38
 
TrevJo
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Thom Yorke is currently completing 75% of his passes FWIW (not 65-70%).
 
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