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Jed
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Catch asked the testers to look through this thread.

2 things I see a lot of people missing:

1) "The rich get richer" argument. Think of it this way: any $ a team spends right now on equipment would instead be spent on Salaries. It won't give rich teams more places to spend money, it'll just shift where they can spend money.

Additionally, there's a reason the term "max contract" is used. There really will be a max which can be spent per player. So at a certain point, unlike in this system, where the richest of the rich teams can spend the $ on 2nd/3rd sets of equipment, teams will only be able to give out max contracts to players and buy upgrades to the stadium. After that, no extra amount of $ will matter.

Also, with the lack of giving players $ they can transfer to another team and taking away the ability to trade players for $, combined with the recent changes where teams who demote won't keep their money, there won't be a way for teams to become so much more rich than they should.

And finally, remember the difference in how $ works right now as compared to in the proposed system for players. Currently, if a player doesn't get equipment $ from one team, he then becomes a burden for the next team and in some cases has a tougher time finding a team for it. In the proposed system, if a player takes a low salary one season, the next season he can get a higher contract and be just as effective as getting a high contract the previous season. So this actually takes the advantage of teams over players in terms of $ helping/hurting them in the long run away.

2) In the proposed system, player money just flat-out goes away. They get a salary, and if you want to think of it in role-playing terms, they spend it on their cars, mansions, and other non-football-related things. It's just gone from the game. There won't be a player bankroll, just their current salary and average salary for the current season.
 
im4ut999
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Originally posted by Jed
Catch asked the testers to look through this thread.

2 things I see a lot of people missing:

1) "The rich get richer" argument. Think of it this way: any $ a team spends right now on equipment would instead be spent on Salaries. It won't give rich teams more places to spend money, it'll just shift where they can spend money.

Additionally, there's a reason the term "max contract" is used. There really will be a max which can be spent per player. So at a certain point, unlike in this system, where the richest of the rich teams can spend the $ on 2nd/3rd sets of equipment, teams will only be able to give out max contracts to players and buy upgrades to the stadium. After that, no extra amount of $ will matter.

Also, with the lack of giving players $ they can transfer to another team and taking away the ability to trade players for $, combined with the recent changes where teams who demote won't keep their money, there won't be a way for teams to become so much more rich than they should.

And finally, remember the difference in how $ works right now as compared to in the proposed system for players. Currently, if a player doesn't get equipment $ from one team, he then becomes a burden for the next team and in some cases has a tougher time finding a team for it. In the proposed system, if a player takes a low salary one season, the next season he can get a higher contract and be just as effective as getting a high contract the previous season. So this actually takes the advantage of teams over players in terms of $ helping/hurting them in the long run away.

2) In the proposed system, player money just flat-out goes away. They get a salary, and if you want to think of it in role-playing terms, they spend it on their cars, mansions, and other non-football-related things. It's just gone from the game. There won't be a player bankroll, just their current salary and average salary for the current season.


So my question goes back to what are the teams going to do with the cash? Is it going to remain just for player salary? No "items" to enable better performance of the team? or is this part of additional stadium upgrades?

Is salary going to be a performance/morale boost?

If it becomes that salary really means nothing, and team cash really means nothing, then what is the point of team income, other than to have enough to pay a salary? If this is where it's heading, then seems like it is a dead issue.

If stadium upgrades provide player performance improvement, then we're back to the rich get richer.....
 
Longhornfan1024
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There is a lot of discussion going on in this thread and it's pretty hard to figure out what is being implemented and what isn't. Can we get a quick summary of the current version of EQ changes that is planned to happen? I assume the OP is out of date now.
 
Jed
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Originally posted by im4ut999
So my question goes back to what are the teams going to do with the cash? Is it going to remain just for player salary? No "items" to enable better performance of the team? or is this part of additional stadium upgrades?

Is salary going to be a performance/morale boost?

If it becomes that salary really means nothing, and team cash really means nothing, then what is the point of team income, other than to have enough to pay a salary? If this is where it's heading, then seems like it is a dead issue.

If stadium upgrades provide player performance improvement, then we're back to the rich get richer.....


There are some things mentioned in the OP to spend $ on which don't exist now. On top of that, yes, the rest goes towards salaries.

There's a reference to "the proposed Energy/Morale changes" in the OP, that's referring to some proposed changes on the test server to make getting/keeping max Energy/Morale tougher across the board. So these things would help temper that a bit.

And once again, try to wrap your head around it, read my last post again: the $ which currently goes towards equipment (a player bonus) would go towards player salaries (a player bonus).

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
There is a lot of discussion going on in this thread and it's pretty hard to figure out what is being implemented and what isn't. Can we get a quick summary of the current version of EQ changes that is planned to happen? I assume the OP is out of date now.


The only big thing I see is a post from Bort which was left off when bringing it here, where he added in that instead of limiting equipment changes per season, that there would be 1 free change and then more would cost BT's or ST's (so there's a limit, but it's not a hard limit, it's based off of player choice).
Edited by Jed on Mar 3, 2010 20:10:12
 
foofighter24
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Originally posted by mbinger

It encourages the "me, me" attitude that gets old.


That is how you achieve balance, though. Until you have a free market where both players and teams are looking out for their interests, you will never have balance. Players should want to maximize their income. The best NFL players aren't playing for the league minimum so they can assemble an All-Pro team.

Having everyone say "Just pay me the minimum and buy me EQ" undermines the the whole financial system of the game, and essentially makes it pointless. Teams and players should have to make tough decisions regarding money, just like they do in real life. Star players should not be happy and play their best when they get paid the league minimum their entire career.
 
foofighter24
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Originally posted by blln4lyf
Also, I don't love the idea, but I do not hate it either. I am strongly against making salary amount determining how effective they can be though, as this will actually cause more bitching than players not getting equipment currently imo.


Those players would then have the choice to go to another team when their contract expires, when they see their morale is low and they are not playing as well as they can.
 
SeattleNiner
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Originally posted by foofighter24
T Teams and players should have to make tough decisions regarding money, just like they do in real life. Star players should not be happy and play their best when they get paid the league minimum their entire career.


The only real issue I can see tying performance to salary, is that it would encourage paying the 1st string players on the team a LOT of money, and then letting the 2nd stringers do with less, which would encourage more imbalances in playing time.
 
Jed
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Originally posted by SeattleNiner
The only real issue I can see tying performance to salary, is that it would encourage paying the 1st string players on the team a LOT of money, and then letting the 2nd stringers do with less, which would encourage more imbalances in playing time.


If an owner tells me, "come to my team, I'm gonna pay you jack shit and give you crap playing time as a backup," I'm probably not signing with that owner, tbh
 
foofighter24
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Originally posted by SeattleNiner
Originally posted by foofighter24

T Teams and players should have to make tough decisions regarding money, just like they do in real life. Star players should not be happy and play their best when they get paid the league minimum their entire career.


The only real issue I can see tying performance to salary, is that it would encourage paying the 1st string players on the team a LOT of money, and then letting the 2nd stringers do with less, which would encourage more imbalances in playing time.


Which would encourage a more open market, as that 2nd string guy might then explore signing with other teams, just like they would in real life. In football, starters make alot of money, and back-ups make a fraction. It's why you don't see 4 all-pro wide receivers on the same team.
 
Ryiotgear
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First off the changes proposed in the OP really aren't doing anything different then we have today. How is buying "team items" that impact morale/energy any different from buying equipment for your players which impact their attributes? Today starting a game with full morale/energy is "free" and equipment costs money - in the proposed new game, starting a game with full morale/energy costs money, but equipment is free.

It is the exact same financial system, just a different spin on how the impact hits the player. Nothing is fundamentally different about it.

Second, it is time for the administration to accept that the financial aspect of this game is just not worth the time or effort. If you want an in-depth and challenging financial simulation there are a million and one ways to find this that aren't a football mmorpg

http://virtonomics.com/
http://www.industryplayer.com/
http://www.forevex.com/en/
http://usa.tycoononline.com/

etc, etc, etc,

There is not a single GLB agent in the history of this game to ever purchase flex and put money in Bort's pocket because of the enjoyment they got out of GLB finances. Stick to your core and focus on what is valuable - this will never fail you in the business world.


Third, closely aligning with my first & second point, there is really no possible way to make the financial aspect of this game interesting because the only thing people care about is their team & dot's performance (and the team performance is driven by their dot performance). The only reason the concept of "money" exists in society is that it can be exchanged for something of value. The only thing of value to the GLB community is performance of their dots (and how that rolls into the team). What is a dot's performance based upon? The 8 attributes and 5 or 6 special abilities they put skill points into. This means any way you dress the concept of "equipment" up (whether it be "team items", AEQ, regular equipment, etc) all we are really doing is buying something to make our dot have better attributes.

Unless you are willing to invest the time and energies to completely overhaul the underlying system, and actually simulate the financial & business processes of real-life in buying, managing, owning, running, maintaining a team; selling tix; tv deals; advertisements; moving cities; union contracts; labor deals; hiring/firing ; etc, etc, implemented all as interesting and challenging aspects of GLB, the financial system will be boring.

You can't just change the 'front-end' impact of how money hits the player's performance and expect the system to be rewarding for the players & agents. Either give the underlying system some merit or just let it go away. Don't dress up the same system with new names for equipment, and different .gifs for us to buy and think the problem will go away.






Edited by Ryiotgear on Mar 5, 2010 09:38:11
Edited by Ryiotgear on Mar 5, 2010 09:37:44
 
shadofax29
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Originally posted by Ryiotgear
First off the changes proposed in the OP really aren't doing anything different then we have today. How is buying "team items" that impact morale/energy any different from buying equipment for your players which impact their attributes? Today starting a game with full morale/energy is "free" and equipment costs money - in the proposed new game, starting a game with full morale/energy costs money, but equipment is free.

It is the exact same financial system, just a different spin on how the impact hits the player. Nothing is fundamentally different about it.

Second, it is time for the administration to accept that the financial aspect of this game is just not worth the time or effort. If you want an in-depth and challenging financial simulation there are a million and one ways to find this that aren't a football mmorpg

http://virtonomics.com/
http://www.industryplayer.com/
http://www.forevex.com/en/
http://usa.tycoononline.com/

etc, etc, etc,

There is not a single GLB agent in the history of this game to ever purchase flex and put money in Bort's pocket because of the enjoyment they got out of GLB finances. Stick to your core and focus on what is valuable - this will never fail you in the business world.


Third, closely aligning with my first & second point, there is really no possible way to make the financial aspect of this game interesting because the only thing people care about is their team & dot's performance (and the team performance is driven by their dot performance). The only reason the concept of "money" exists in society is that it can be exchanged for something of value. The only thing of value to the GLB community is performance of their dots (and how that rolls into the team). What is a dot's performance based upon? The 8 attributes and 5 or 6 special abilities they put skill points into. This means any way you dress the concept of "equipment" up (whether it be "team items", AEQ, regular equipment, etc) all we are really doing is buying something to make our dot have better attributes.

Unless you are willing to invest the time and energies to completely overhaul the underlying system, and actually simulate the financial & business processes of real-life in buying, managing, owning, running, maintaining a team; selling tix; tv deals; advertisements; moving cities; union contracts; labor deals; hiring/firing ; etc, etc, implemented all as interesting and challenging aspects of GLB, the financial system will be boring.

You can't just change the 'front-end' impact of how money hits the player's performance and expect the system to be rewarding for the players & agents. Either give the underlying system some merit or just let it go away. Don't dress up the same system with new names for equipment, and different .gifs for us to buy and think the problem will go away.








+1

1. Do away with the EQ cost.
2. Make player builds the only performance enhancer.
a. Make Agents log on each day to "train their player" or lose the benefit of training effectively.
b. How you train impacts the effectiveness as well. Must have an effective training regimen
c. Players spend money on Personal Training, Training Regimen, Food, Supplements, etc
3. Agents who don't log on for several seasons would have their players Auto retired.
4. All players would automatically be assigned to a division based on age. This would do away with your SSB issue. Nobody wants their 300 day old player who is only level 25 playing in a Cap 42 league.
5. AEQ can be bought to improve performance of player.

Team level

1. Provide a fully built stadium from the start
2. Team can sell naming rights to Stadium to generate revenue
3. Team can advertise/run promotions to generate fan base
4. Winning helps generate fan base
5. Player DRAFT!!!

There are many other things you can do to generate interest, commitment, and reduce complexity. Need to add the fun factor back into the equation.
Edited by shadofax29 on Apr 3, 2010 16:55:55
 
ajd40
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Originally posted by shadofax29
+1

1. Do away with the EQ cost.
2. Make player builds the only performance enhancer.
a. Make Agents log on each day to "train their player" or lose the benefit of training effectively.
b. How you train impacts the effectiveness as well. Must have an effective training regimen
c. Players spend money on Personal Training, Training Regimen, Food, Supplements, etc
3. Agents who don't log on for several seasons would have their players Auto retired.
4. All players would automatically be assigned to a division based on age. This would do away with your SSB issue. Nobody wants their 300 day old player who is only level 25 playing in a Cap 42 league.
5. AEQ can be bought to improve performance of player.

Team level

1. Provide a fully built stadium from the start
2. Team can sell naming rights to Stadium to generate revenue
3. Team can advertise/run promotions to generate fan base
4. Winning helps generate fan base
5. Player DRAFT!!!

There are many other things you can do to generate interest, commitment, and reduce complexity. Need to add the fun factor back into the equation.


I really like the idea of having players assigned to leagues based on age. Once the players are assigned you can have a draft of those players. Any player that isn't selected by draft becomes a free agent and can sign with one league lower.

I also like the idea of the game controlling attribute gains. You create your player and assign an archetype. Once you level up, the game decides where your attribute points go. Sometimes you get lucky and have an above average gain in an attribute sometimes it's normal. You can use veteran points to assign SA's and VA's. This eliminates the SSB's and exploit builds and basically let's everyone play the game instead of just the "in the know" builders.
 
HULK
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Whats the latest on this topic? Seems like there are some ideas set in stone now, can one of you testers drop some knowledge? TIA.
 
tuba_samurai
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Originally posted by HULK
Whats the latest on this topic? Seems like there are some ideas set in stone now, can one of you testers drop some knowledge? TIA.


I haven't seen anything new on the test server. i think Bort and catch are hammering out the details. I am sure they will announce it when it is done.
 
Kendo 1
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would be nice to get a little more info on this.
How is it going to happen ? will it just be introduced at site rollover ?
When ? this week ? next ? next season ?

will it all be one package with coaches introduced at same time ? i would prefer this. I see what they are trying to do with the sim, i would personally like everything done this season so we can have stable season 16.

Season 15 the season of change, archetypes, coaches, finances.
 
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