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Forum > Test Server Discussion > Test Server Discussions > Uber High Attributes Effectiveness Discussion
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TxSteve
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A hot topic with 250+ comments. A lot of discussion on both sides of the issue. Please read that again - discussion.

Currently no changes planned that I can see.

Original Premise: Are extremely high attributes unbalancing the game? Should there be diminishing returns on an attribute past a certain point? Should secondary attributes be given more importance?

Some interesting quotes from within the thread by assorted people:

well the reason (and this is getting to the core problem I think) that people can max out attributes and ignore others is they know that certain attributes having low values means little to nothing, so what does penalizing something that has little to nothing value do? I'd be for that if we increased the effect these attributes had but I think we all pretty much know that taking confidence, stamina, vision or other similar attributes over the 3rd cap at any time is a waste of skill points except for a select few positions.
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Secondary and tertiary attributes need to play more of a role, not act as arbitrary speed inhibitors.
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ok so I think we're all in agreement here that secondary attributes need to have more meaning. Now the question is which ones for which positions.
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Blocking needs to be more important for anyone that blocks. As it is now, str is by far more important everywhere, with the arguable exception of LOTs
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Don't make agility cover so easily for lack of tackling...wrong idea entirely, imo.
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Could definitely see Confidence, and maybe stamina factoring into more rolls...but not crazy about the overall idea.
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We need a trade-off.

Want the fastest WR in the game and give him 140 Speed, 110 Agility? Fine, but with <60 Vision/Catching, he's going to drop a LOT of passes and with <60 Jumping, if he has to jump or dive for a catch, he's screwed. He'll get open a lot and will be a good homerun threat, but not reliable.

Want the most powerful RB who breaks a ton of tackles, has 110 Strength, 80 Carrying, and still has 70-90 Speed/Agility? Fine, he'll break a lot of tackles, but without Vision up higher, he's not going to find the open lanes as well (so if his blocking isn't perfect, he'll slow down to make a decision on where to go and make the wrong decision often) and since he'll have to break a lot of tackles, he'll take a big Energy/Morale hit, so that lack of Stamina/Confidence means he won't be out there in the game as often to make those plays (or will be forced in and will be playing at an overall lower level because of it).

I think you get the idea of where I'm going with all this, have everything in the game be a real tradeoff. Have fewer skills be involved in the rolls of all the important things for that class (ie: how Strength does for O-line play, meaning O-linemen can stack up on Strength and still manage to do well in pass-blocking) so players have to choose: be a master of one thing or be only good at a few things.
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We're trying to think what kind of issues do we need to resolve to get this game stable and out of beta. This is one of them.
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discussions about the idea of increasing the importance of confidence


Summary -
Most people seem to agree that the fact that you can currently (pretty much) neglect confidence and stamina is a bad thing for the game. Most seem to feel those two stats should be more important.

Most also agree - that one dimensional players should be very good at that one dimension....and not nearly as good at the other aspects of the game (ie - specialists)

But all in all - no changes seem to be forthcoming - just a lot of discussion
 
tragula
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The problem is the lover levels. The secondary attributes are still secondary and cannot get priority over the major ones when players are build for the pros. Typically a 4-5th attribute will not be soft capped before level 40. If one make all SB unusable in minor the competition level with just go down.
Edited by tragula on Feb 17, 2010 12:24:54
Edited by tragula on Feb 17, 2010 12:24:25
 
PackMan97
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A few suggestions:

Confidence: Have confidence modify the bottom range of a roll. The more confident you are, the more consistent you are. If your base range for a roll is 20 to 60 for example, a higher confidence player might roll 25-60 and a very high confidence player a 30-60 or something along those lines. It doesn't improve the top end of your play, only eliminates the worst of it.

Confidence: Allow morale to go over 100 and the higher limit is based on how high your confidence is.

Vision: It should affect how quickly players transition between movements. A lineman pancakes someone, base the delay on him doing something else based on his vision. A HB/WR pulls a juke/break tackle, a vision based delay while he looks up and finds a new route. QB progression speed is already vision based, no? Transitioning from pass blocking to run blocking, picking up on the handoff to the runner is another vision based delay, etc.

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How to balance this across the board. That's SUPER DUPER EASY! No, seriously, it is! Easier than eating cake! Simply store the AVERAGE value for these secondary stats for each level and each position. Heck, you could run this nightly, or once a season. Doesn't matter. Kinda like you do with the "effective level" score.

The higher your player's attribute is from the average attribute for that position and level, the more bonus you get. The lower it is, the more penalty you receive. If you make it a bonus/penalty from the norm it becomes far easier to balance, imo.
 
tragula
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Originally posted by PackMan97

Vision: It should affect how quickly players transition between movements. A lineman pancakes someone, base the delay on him doing something else based on his vision. A HB/WR pulls a juke/break tackle, a vision based delay while he looks up and finds a new route. QB progression speed is already vision based, no? Transitioning from pass blocking to run blocking, picking up on the handoff to the runner is another vision based delay, etc.


Me like ! smart words.

Originally posted by PackMan97

How to balance this across the board. That's SUPER DUPER EASY! No, seriously, it is! Easier than eating cake! Simply store the AVERAGE value for these secondary stats for each level and each position. Heck, you could run this nightly, or once a season. Doesn't matter. Kinda like you do with the "effective level" score.

The higher your player's attribute is from the average attribute for that position and level, the more bonus you get. The lower it is, the more penalty you receive. If you make it a bonus/penalty from the norm it becomes far easier to balance, imo.


Me hates !
Attributes were always about linearity. +1 at level 1 and attribute=10 is equal to a +1 at level 70 and attribute=80. Killing that is a major change of how the game works, and not for the good side.
What happen with a level 50 and a level 70 who plays in the same league ? in term of major attributes they are likely similar. Why the level 50 get an effective "bonus" making his undeveloped minors a lesser problem ? It also make it harder to compere builds and study the system.
And of course even in a big statistical world like GLB it is possible that the average WR at level 50 will have more vision then the average WR at level 51. This completely screws the equality bonuses.


My answer to nerf one dimensional builds is very simple:
Softcap EQ ! just use a similar system to the one just introduced to the +% modifiers. Without stack piling EQ the 130+ attributes cannot be reach. A user who does want to get to the max attribute pays effectively more in secondary ones. Exchanging +1 spd to +2 agility will make people think twice before building all speed WRs.


Edited by tragula on Feb 17, 2010 13:11:04
Edited by tragula on Feb 17, 2010 13:10:34
Edited by tragula on Feb 17, 2010 13:10:16
 
PackMan97
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I wouldn't apply it to everything, I was just thinking some of the things that are used to balance secondary and tertiary attributes. Never anything like speed, strength, etc.

Good point on the game wide issue. I wouldn't be opposed to using a league positional average for the comparison instead of game wide position + level.

Hmm...diminishing gains on EQ. Interesting thought. Sorta like the AEQ % changes.
 
PP
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Personally, I believe if you simply make it so that stamina & confidence are important that would go a long ways to encouraging more balanced builds. Stamina used to be very important in the earlier GLB days. Besides, it just makes logical sense. What FB player would do well if he wasn't in shape and didn't believe in himself?

I have nothing against extreme builds. They're fun and I believe they should produce some cool stuff, but they should also fail dismally in many areas because of poor supporting skills. I hate, hate, hate, hate the idea of capping or applying any penalty to them. On the flip side, more well rounded builds (the really good ones) should dominate the real extreme builds 8 or 9 times out of 10.
 
Staz
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TxSteve, I know there was a large number of posts, but would it be possible to get a summary like turnit643 is doing? Quotes and better formatting? I know I'm being nitpicky, it was just much easier to read with the formatting, and a little more "inviting". If you could call it that.

There are some good quotes within the thread, too.
 
TxSteve
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I'll see if I can put in some time on formatting - maybe turnit is better on the computer than me - but formatting can be extremely time consuming.


As for the quotes - all I can do is pick and choose the posts that stand out to me - I can't recreate the entire thread here. As far as I know - you're more than welcome to add any applicable quotes that you think I missed.
 
Catch22
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don't worry too much about formatting Steve. The key is just getting the information over here. Staz is just bored and has no life.
 
tragula
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Originally posted by TxSteve
I'll see if I can put in some time on formatting - maybe turnit is better on the computer than me - but formatting can be extremely time consuming.


As for the quotes - all I can do is pick and choose the posts that stand out to me - I can't recreate the entire thread here. As far as I know - you're more than welcome to add any applicable quotes that you think I missed.


I actually liked TxSteve style better. XD
 
Staz
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Originally posted by Catch22
don't worry too much about formatting Steve. The key is just getting the information over here. Staz is just bored and has no life.


and your point?
 
pottsman
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Originally posted by Catch22
don't worry too much about formatting Steve. The key is just getting the information over here. Staz is just bored and has no life.


Someone who volunteers his time to test a web based football mmo is bored and has no life? Shocking...



says the guy who moderates the forums for the same game
 
TehKyou
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I think the football skills should be more relevant in the specific rolls that they're designed for, and physical and mental attributes should have a lesser effect on more rolls.

For example, let say you roll a make tackle score and your statistics are 50 tackling, strength, vision, confidence. The score value should be something like .75 tackling + .25 strength + .25 confidence + .25 vision + momentum score + RNG + Tackle Setting Score.

Ignoring momentum, RNG, and Tackle Setting. under this model you get a tackle score of 75. 37.5 of which comes from Tackling, all the others contributed 12.5 a piece.

But this makes tackling only used in the make tackle roll, while the other attributes are still used in various other things you are doing throughout the game.
 
Barnzie
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Instead of discussing arbitrary adjustments for the sake of change the approach should be to identify what's important in real football.

In football speed is important, but there are times when it's a disadvantage. It is difficult to translate forward momentum to lateral momentum. Runners slow down to spin and juke. Defenders haul ass to get to the point of attack then slow down to make sure they don't miss the tackle. Receivers have difficulty making certain sharp cuts at speed. Receivers have more difficulty seeing the ball when they're sprinting down the field than when they're standing still.

Strength may help you stay on your feet and break away from a tackle, but it wont be too much help during the initial collision. That's where size, speed, and technique come in.

When blocking positioning and technique are important. Strength will help blockers contain defenders and push them back but blockers still need good hands and feet.

Etc.
 
PP
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Steve....If it helps, don't worry about editing my name off of any of the posts. I'm fine with being linked to anything I say there. Frankly, I think everyone should be accountable. Maybe that would help lessen ppl pushing agendas that could help themselves.
 
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