Warrior General Games

I got it for my guard as a peice of aeq.

is that worth buying?

Hey greg .. imo you want Get Low. You don't typically have problems engaging a DT/NT so First Step is overkill.

Question for the vets, can a guard pull enough to make this worthwhile?

Originally posted by greg420
I got it for my guard as a peice of aeq.

is that worth buying?

Quality piece - as second one. If you are able to upgrade 2 pieces throughout your career, this one would be a perfect fit for right guard.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh. As a second piece, you'll get it to +4 first step. Is 4 first step really going to fire enough? Say you pull 5 times a game. I bet first step fires once, tops. The only way I advise to use first step is if you get TWO first step pieces, so you can get the SA to 8. Then it's actually doing something.

Originally posted by Octowned
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh. As a second piece, you'll get it to +4 first step. Is 4 first step really going to fire enough? Say you pull 5 times a game. I bet first step fires once, tops. The only way I advise to use first step is if you get TWO first step pieces, so you can get the SA to 8. Then it's actually doing something.

...then the difference is actually so great, you'll notice every time it fires.

Don't confuse others. Just because a SA doesn't make THAT big of a difference doesn't mean it's not working.

Do some guys still believe in that "SAs need to go over 8" - bullshit?

Okay, fine, let me put it another way.

To get first step to +4 costs you 8 upgrades. That's 64 bonus tokens. Every 4 bonus tokens you could cash-in for a simple 1 SP. That means to get to +4 costs you sixteen SP.

The natural cost of going from 1 to 4 is 1+1+2+2 = 6 SP.

Would a WR ever spend 16 SP to get first step to 4? No
Then why the heck would a guard spend 16 skill points to get first step to 4?

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Aka, the only time you should use an out of position SA is if you get it up to 8, so the value at least comes CLOSE to being worth it. The only time you should ever use ANY equip on an SA is if you can get it to 8 (ideally 10 if it's an in position SA). That doesn't mean SAs suck below 8. It just means don't waste your time on the AEQ for that SA, it is a bad decision based on opportunity costs.

well put

Originally posted by Octowned
Okay, fine, let me put it another way.

To get first step to +4 costs you 8 upgrades. That's 64 bonus tokens. Every 4 bonus tokens you could cash-in for a simple 1 SP. That means to get to +4 costs you sixteen SP.

The natural cost of going from 1 to 4 is 1+1+2+2 = 6 SP.

Would a WR ever spend 16 SP to get first step to 4? No
Then why the heck would a guard spend 16 skill points to get first step to 4?

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Aka, the only time you should use an out of position SA is if you get it up to 8, so the value at least comes CLOSE to being worth it. The only time you should ever use ANY equip on an SA is if you can get it to 8 (ideally 10 if it's an in position SA). That doesn't mean SAs suck below 8. It just means don't waste your time on the AEQ for that SA, it is a bad decision based on opportunity costs.

Impressive math and logic. Exept... you know... there's one question not answered:


What exactly is the price of something you can't buy?


(take your time, because obviously you never thought of this before)

Bort announced, that the higher you take a SA, the less it adds to the existing bonus / chance. According to that, what's better: getting from 0 to 4, from 4 to 8 or from 8 to 12?


I got another one for you: Let's say acceleration is calculated by some factor of agility and another factor of speed. Let's say, you got agility at 70 and speed at 60. Thats:

acceleration = 70y + 60z

Question:

how much will you increase your acceleration if you spent 16 Skill Points there?

acceleration = 74y + 60z ....or 70y + 65z - anyway: WAY below +10%.

+10 % acceleration = 77y + 66z

(that's 32 Skill Points for the +7 in agility and 18 Skill Points for the +6 in speed)

Looks like a +10 % acceleration will take 40 Skill Points.

Now what if SA First Step gives you like:

1... +4 % acceleration when slow/standing still
2...+3 %
3...+2 %
4...+1 %

Even at this very low values, you'd gain + 10 % acceleration.

So spend 40 Skill Points or 64 bonus tokens?

(take your time, because obviously you never thought of this before)

I have a degree in applied math, minor in economics, and am 3 weeks from a masters in statistics. I've thought a lot about the math behind building players.



Plus, you made a big error - +10% acceleration (which was a guess) IF the SA fires. The "value" you calculated in "equivalent" speed/agility is every play. 4 first step is.. not many plays. Not to mention, that speed/agility "value" is also for other things like blocking in general, where first step isn't, etc., etc. Just a very silly post all together.



I don't care if there is an unknown factor in the sim code, I'm not wasting 64 bonus tokens for 4 first step on a guard.

(Woah... how trustworthy is a guy pulling the "I'm such a stud - I earned a degree"-card? Especially since he can't answer a simple question.)

But let's get to the point:

You're right, the SA doesn't fire each time it can. But it has several chances during a play to fire - each time the player accelerates from a stop or while going slowly (Bort confirmed, SA First Step can fire when the player is slow). Lineman are typically going slowly - just a few steps till the next block attempt.

So what do you estimate how often SA First Step fires (barely ever? rather often?)? Also: Do you think my guess of 10 % by SA First Step at 4 is too high - or too low?

Since you're so good at math:
- assuming only +10 % acceleration IF SA First Step fires
- taking only 64 BTs = 18 Skill Points
- taking 40 Skill Points to raise +10 by raising speed and agility

How often does the SA need to fire to reach the same cost/gain average?

Next one: what about

Originally posted by Octowned
...speed/agility "value" is also for other things like blocking in general...

Sounds great - but what does that mean? The ability of a player to get into perfect position to block / to engage the defender faster? That'll be short distance movement - so quick acceleration is the major factor.



(I'll keep going because I'm convinced that this is a quality discussion and both points of view should be open to the public. Not trying to convince you!)

10% first step at 4 is probably about right.

My point is that getting a bonus of acceleration equivalent to +10 speed/agility (what you call 40 skill points) is wildly inaccurate.

Even if the equivalence to 10 speed/agility was accurate, despite being a random guess...

let's weigh the options..
4 First Step - "equivalent" to 10 speed/agility
-only during the acceleration
-only on some low % of snaps

Straight up 10 speed/agility
-gets you the exact same acceleration as the 4 first step would
-you get the speed/agility on every snap
-you also get the speed/agility for movements OTHER than acceleration, such as moving in the pocket or moving once you're at full speed on a pull.

With that in mind, even if 4 first step was somehow worth 10 speed/agility, which if you valued at 40 skill points opportunity cost, that 4 first step absolutely plummets in value when you consider the circumstances you are USING that 10 speed/agility. Nowhere near 40 skill points in value, if I had to guess.

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I stand firm that using 64 bonus tokens (16 skill point opportunity cost) is absolutely not worth going from 0 to 4 in First Step.

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A very easy decision rule, though subjective, is to simply answer the question: Would you spend 16 skill points on 4 first step, if given the choice. I don't care about this whole "how do you value something you can't buy".. YOU CAN BUY IT, it is in the shop. I have a feeling most people would say "no" even without doing a further analysis to try to figure out what first step is actually doing in the sim code.

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Including +3 agility is a nice thought, however. Ask yourself the question though, how much is that 3 agility worth? If your answer is 4:1 because you're in the 4:1 cap, you need to follow the decision rule again: Would you spend 4:1 on agility? You didn't did you? Or you'd be in the 5:1 cap. Therefor it ISN'T worth 4:1 each. I'd say that +3 agility is worth 9 skill points.

So now would you spend 7 skill points on 4 first step? Well, maybe However, my answer is still no, because of the existence of even more valuable advanced equipment opportunities. There is an implied cost in equipping this piece, namely you CAN'T use a BETTER piece because you chose this one!

The value is out there to find, and I just don't see it in a first step piece

I trust anything Octowned says tbh.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
I trust anything Octowned says tbh.

Blind faith FTW

well I disagree with some of it, since shutdown coverage is awesomeness even when it's only at 4. it's at least a +10% pass deflection bonus, not to mention speed and agility.

but i don't think first step is great for a guard, or any lineman. even if you did get it to 8.