Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
it also appears to be misleading information regarding the whole 'pop the ball loose' thing.

tbf, I don't think that's actually wrong, it's just that that roll is incredibly hard to make and also reliant on something you can't control (momentum). It's clearly a small secondary benefit of the skill though. The skill is primarily about stopping a ball carriers momentum.


Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Like I could have 90 speed, but if the LB is coming off a block, or whatever, and isn't running fast at the moment of impact, then no fumble chance.

No fumble chance from power tackling, absolutely. And no amount of speed, quickness, footwork, conditioning, whatever your poison is, is going to help in those situations. It's entirely luck.


Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Basically what it comes down to is FFs, from power tackling, are situation based. FFs from Strip Tech can happen at any time.

Absolutely.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Right - it's like KL really only happen when you're out of position.

That is how it was in GLB. My moose team was a zone defense built for KLs. All of our KL's came when the CB was out of position or got beat and there was a gap they had to make up. That gap seemed to be enough room for momentum to help with KLs.

The answer is strip tech.

Check out my 90 strip tech LB who had 16 FF's last season, and 6 so far this season, playing on a team thats intentionally bad so morale is always in the shitter.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/163180
And my CB who's had 75+ strip tech the past two seasons, 9 and 4 fumbles respectively on the same team.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/163182

And check out these LB's I built which are older to test Grip and Strip with no tackle tech or power tackling, They both had 6 FF's this past season.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/160813
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/161647

However as a counterpoint, here's my 90 power Tackling S* LB, he's had 12, 10, and 8 FF's in the past 3 seasons, but he's involved in about twice as many tackles a season as the above players.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/146420

If you want to force fumbles you need to pump strip tech, power tackling is just so you don't get dumped by Power HB's, or get dragged, think of it like an addition to your tackle quality score that also has the rare potential to roll for a FF, but just not as often. It should be obvious just from reading the skill description that strip technique would be much more powerful at forcing fumbles than power tackling, but somehow in the first 2 or 3 seasons everyone got it in their head that strip tech did nothing so that's been the meta for a while.

Also another thing to consider is that strip tech fumbles are more easily recoverable because the defender is still on their feet after the fumble, while a power tackling FF usually has the defender on the ground when the ball pops out.

Power Tackling fumble examples:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/229879/2540974
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/229879/2541552

Notice my LB is on the ground after both fumbles and another player has to make the recovery.

Strip Tech fumble examples:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/230466/2545534?player_id=163180
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/230434/1136858?player_id=163180
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/232873/381556

Notice how after the fumble the player who causes the fumble is still on his feet and often in a better position to recover the FF they just forced.

Strip Tech is powerful, and on an actually good team I think players built to maximize Strip Tech with high tackling grip would cause excessive problems against the run. Problem is it's tough to maximize grip and strip on the same player. Strip tech is mainly from agility and awareness, while grip is mainly from strength. So setting up the initial attributes for those 3 to be high often means sacrificing speed, stamina, and confidence. I think a S* could be built to do it without being deficient in one area, but the LB's and CB above who are strip tech focused are deficient in other areas of their builds due to the initial attributes, although I do believe it could work well on pass focused CB's who just pump strip tech and awareness/coverage skills. Especially on a S*CB who just has average coverage skills 85+ tech, aware, and deflect they could probably pump strip to 80 or so and do some serious KL and fumble damage.

You don't need very much grip. 35 is fine.

Originally posted by Cuivienen
You don't need very much grip. 35 is fine.

But with high grip/strip and low power tackling wouldn't the dragging tackler be repeatedly engaging in a FF roll, increasing the chances to strip the ball against powerbacks?

I had an LB with 35 grip that would hold onto the best power backs in Vet for a dozen yards and multiple seconds. Plenty of chances for additional FF rolls with 35 grip is my point.

Also, I think the whole FF while being dragged is a bit of a unicorn. How many have you seen? FFs come at the point of impact 9 times out of 10. But dump a bunch of SP into grip instead of strip and sacrifice strip cap if you want.

Originally posted by Cuivienen
Also, I think the whole FF while being dragged is a bit of a unicorn. How many have you seen? FFs come at the point of impact 9 times out of 10. But dump a bunch of SP into grip instead of strip and sacrifice strip cap if you want.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/240179/2130761
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/234717/837171
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/240179/2129325

These 3 are from my 2 JMan Grip and Strip experiments with 80 strip and 65+ grip.
They combined for 12 fumbles, 3 weren't exactly at that point of impact, and the last one occurred after a very long drag.

So maybe 25% or so (just this past season) not at the point of impact, and 8.3% occurred after very long drags. I'd be curious to see how they performed on better teams, or at least consistent teams where I'm not starting over for chemistry every season. I think they could do a little better. The above does not disprove your point at all that they are rare, 8.3% of all fumbles, and fumbles occurred about 9% of the time on tackles, so less than 1% of tackles this season, I'm not disagreeing with you, just posting replays and data to help everyone decide what they want to do. The point of building these dots was to compile data.

I looked through all of the fumbles forced by the younger dots the past 2 seasons who only have 30 something tackle grip and I couldn't find a single one that occurred after the point of contact, and they caused 35 fumbles over that span of time between the two of them.

The purpose of tackling grip on the experimental dots wasn't to be dragged though, I actually intended to see if you could substitute tackling tech and power tackling for tackling grip entirely. With the point being the dot wouldn't consistently make tackles, but that he would be consistently dragged behind ball carriers for long periods of time slowing them down, with the added bonus of opportunist firing and chances for continual strips. I personally think a defense could run with players who abstain from tackle tech and power tackling entirely and replaced it with tackling grip. So long as there were a few wrecking ball dots running around with strip technique to clean up. Obviously they'd have trouble making stops on 3rd and 1, but I think a lot of value could be returned. If I ever do make a second team thats the concept I would build the defense around.

fwiw here's my S* LB who's forced a bunch of fumbles almost every season. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/122175

Tons of Power Tackling and Sprinting, pretty heavy Intimidation..not a lot of Strip Tech, but some. I definitely buy into the momentum factor.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
These 3 are from my 2 JMan Grip and Strip experiments with 80 strip and 65+ grip.

I'm just saying they would also hold on for a decent amount of time with less grip and you'd probably get more FF if you plowed those SP back into strip.


Originally posted by MileHighShoes
The purpose of tackling grip on the experimental dots wasn't to be dragged though, I actually intended to see if you could substitute tackling tech and power tackling for tackling grip entirely.

That is an interesting concept, and you probably would need high grip if you are going into the tackle with low tech, as I imagine the grip roll is harder.

In fact, you bring up an interesting point in general. When I say you don't need a lot of grip, I should caveat that by saying that is assuming you have high tech.

Which probably means the grip roll is broken into two parts. Do you establish a grip, and do you continue to hold on.

I believe holding on is an easy roll and therefore doesn't require a lot of grip. But potentially the initial grip roll is tougher, especially after a poor tackle (which is more likely with low tech).

Originally posted by Spastic_Cowboy
fwiw here's my S* LB who's forced a bunch of fumbles almost every season. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/122175

Tons of Power Tackling and Sprinting, pretty heavy Intimidation..not a lot of Strip Tech, but some. I definitely buy into the momentum factor.

I see that with the build. Its nice to be able to see some top tier builds. Its also nice knowing I have several that are similar. I feel a little better about how I build my players now.

Yes, with adequate or high tackling tech there are also less opportunities to be dragged because you're more likely to take the defender down in the initial contact as well. So I was hoping to see more drags and strips, and also curious to see how good/bad the dots were at tackling. They aren't terribly good at tackling, but I've never seen them on the same team for more than a season, so chemistry could very well be a factor, and all of their multi-missed tackle games occurred early in the season.

I'm very curious what a player with 80+ grip and NO other tackling skills would do, because I also believe the same thing, that their is an initial roll to engage in grip and it's modified by tackle quality, so the worse you get beaten in the break tackle vs make tackle roll the more difficult the grip roll is. So to initiate grip you'd need a higher tackling grip score than a player with good tackling skills. And then yes, holding on is easier, but then progressively more difficult as time passes. I think the initial grip roll determines how long you are able to hold on and then there's a grip strength deterioration roll that augments the initial number up or down. Along with other rolls to attempt to bring the ball carrier down/strip the ball during the drag.

I think it'd be especially dangerous for CB's to load up on Strip Tech since most WR's have no more than about 35 carrying grip.