Warrior General Games

Jesus peeti take a chill pill. Isn't it happy hour over there?

Originally posted by Parab00n
I don't get what you are trying to say, the only true fix to this is to give coordinators the option to over ride rattled. You are eliminating over 75% of the playbook because you have to run TE primary plays to force your TE to go on a route.

This.

Just because you have found the perfect playbook to mostly avoid the rattled effect, it doesn't mean it's a good mechanic. We need the option to override the mechanic if we want to.

Originally posted by Xars
I agree with you on the fix. Yes rattled cause WR primary plays to be at a disadvantage. Doesn't mean it can't be changed/ tweaked.

Though, perhaps QBs need more Heart (generally, not Belgarath) so they aren't rattled as much and thus WR primary plays wouldn't be at a disadvantage?

Belgarath is at 106 effective Heart (81+25) now with +16 more in Road games and +5 in Home games. I'll do a test again on a later season road game with high hurry and see what the data is on WR Posts for holding in the TE.

No, we don't need QB's taking heart to 100 and people making playbooks with only 5 plays. Just because it's working for you, doesn't mean it's good for the game. Even with your 100+ heart(which is extreme), you were holding the TE back over 40% of the time. Not good.

Originally posted by Rob.
No, we don't need QB's taking heart to 100 and people making playbooks with only 5 plays. Just because it's working for you, doesn't mean it's good for the game. Even with your 100+ heart(which is extreme), you were holding the TE back over 40% of the time. Not good.

I agree with a lot of this. My first data set was from Game 3 of the season where Belgarath's Heart was 85-90 adjusted. It was only recently that I added Road Warrior and Home Town Hero.

So here's Game 26 at Home. Belgarath's effective Heart was 81+25+5=111. Here's the data on the same play TRIP WR Posts.

SB WR Posts Hurry 29.2% Sack 0%
Nickel Man LB contain TE Out HB Out
Nickel C1 WR1 Smother TE Out HB Out
Nickel Cover 1 Dogs TE Out HB in
Nickel C1 WR1 Smother TE Out HB Out
Nickel C1 WR1 Smother TE Out HB Out
Over Will Mike Blitz TE Out HB Out
Dogs All Go TE Out HB in
Cover 1 LB Dogs TE Out HB Out
3-3-5 Cover 1 Man Under TE Out HB Out
Dime Cover TE Out HB in
Nickel C1 WR1 Smother TE Out HB in
3-2-6 Cover 1 TE Out HB Out
Dogs All Go TE Out HB Out
Cover 1 LB Dogs TE in HB Out
3-3-5 Cover 1 Man Under TE in HB in
Cover 1 LB Dogs TE Out HB in
Cover 1 LB Dogs TE Out HB Out
3-3-5 Cover 1 LB Dogs TE Out HB Out
Over Will Mike Blitz TE in HB Out
Cover 1 LB Dogs TE Out HB in
3-3-5 Cover 1 Man Under TE Out HB Out
3-3-5 Cover 1 Man Under TE Out HB Out
Dogs All Go TE Out HB Out
Cover 1 LB Dogs TE in HB Out

Summary: TE held in 16.67% of the time. HB held in 29.1% of the time. Hurry rate was the same for the play, but no sacks.

That's significantly different and interestingly 3 out of the 4 times the TE was held in, the HB released. So on one play out of 24, I had 2 blockers held in. That's a 4% effect.

Did an extra 20 Heart make a difference? Maybe. The lack of Sacks may be part of it. (Toughness was constant for both games).

Everyone complains about cookie-cutter builds, but maybe a pure passing team needs a QB with an "extreme" investment in Heart?

Do people like it? Obviously no, but is that because they are under-investing in Heart or because no one wants to do it regardless of the merits?

Or just run Te primary plays and screw heart. Why invest in heart when you cam just ignore parts of the playbook.

Still Xars...Why cant you accept that your numbers cant eb translated to the whole Game? OFC there are good teams. Do you think with 50 Heart you would suddenly be mediocre? No.

Also...One game is just as a bad way to deliver data you wanna sell as proof. There is much that plays into it. I dont know if you ignore that purposely or you really think that those are numbers explaining the whole game.

You have a great understanding of the game, but you still overestimate yourself sometimes and thats why I leave this discussion now.
Just as an example tho: My rookie team, which GREATLY benefited from your input (and some others) also changed nearly all builds a bit, for example ignoring Heart on our QB big times. Yet, we are still #1. You see what I mean?
There is much that causes some numbers of a single team, but that doesnt mean it can be carried over to general rules for the game. Period. Whether or not you want to believe it.

And no...this is no raging/screaming/ or anything.

Greetz

Originally posted by peeti
Again...its about beeing able to choose from more formation sets. Im not saying you cannot play around it. God dman, you can. The elite passing teams show you. But the system makes all 2 WR and 2TE sets useless (or lets say less useful) in which the WRs are the primary target.

Thats the only thing I hate about it. All the other stuff is the mechanc itself. And the mechanic itself is great. Otherwise we will see perma sacks again

Ok, so maybe change the rattled mechanic a bit. Instead of the 1st read being safe from rattled, what about the Top 2 reads?

Let's just go through Singleback Big, to find out how much of a difference that change might make:

Short - 4 total plays
Plays with TE or BTE as 1st read - 2
Plays with TE or BTE as 2nd read - 3

So every play in the Short section of the playbook would have at least the TE or the BTE being safe from rattled, and 1 play where both are safe.

Medium - 7 total plays
Plays with TE or BTE as 1st read - 7
Plays with TE or BTE as 2nd read - 6

This would make almost the entire section safe from the rattled mechanic.

Long - 1 play
Plays with TE or BTE as 1st read - 1
Plays with TE or BTE as 2nd read - 1

The only play in this section would be safe from rattled.

So if we make the Top 2 reads safe from the rattled mechanic, we would see a lot more coordinators feel content with using 2TE sets in their offense. Haven't looked at the Big I formation, but it's probably fairly similar in regards to % of plays that would be safe from rattled if the Top 2 reads are exempt from that mechanic.

nm, still stuck in GLB1 old day thinking.

corrected

If you mouse over the 5 circled positions in the lower left of each play in the playbook, it says "QB Checkdown order". Which implies that there are progressions happening. So a play like Singleback Big Short Hooks would have the following progression order:

W2 then TE then BTE then HB then WR1

Sorry you are correct. Forgot that he ended up putting the progressions on the play art.

Originally posted by Absolut Zero
Ok, so maybe change the rattled mechanic a bit. Instead of the 1st read being safe from rattled, what about the Top 2 reads?


http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/133562/2135613

In this play the 2nd, 3rd & 4th checkdowns are all held back, lol. The 1st and 5th (wr's) go out only.

I guess the new meta is throw TE Drive out of 3WR, else throw out of 4WR's.

Originally posted by peeti
Still Xars...Why cant you accept that your numbers cant eb translated to the whole Game? OFC there are good teams. Do you think with 50 Heart you would suddenly be mediocre? No.

Also...One game is just as a bad way to deliver data you wanna sell as proof. There is much that plays into it. I dont know if you ignore that purposely or you really think that those are numbers explaining the whole game.

You have a great understanding of the game, but you still overestimate yourself sometimes and thats why I leave this discussion now.
Just as an example tho: My rookie team, which GREATLY benefited from your input (and some others) also changed nearly all builds a bit, for example ignoring Heart on our QB big times. Yet, we are still #1. You see what I mean?
There is much that causes some numbers of a single team, but that doesnt mean it can be carried over to general rules for the game. Period. Whether or not you want to believe it.

And no...this is no raging/screaming/ or anything.

Greetz

And this is why after 8 seasons, people complain about mechanics they don't understand (myself guilty as charged too).

We haven't done anywhere near enough testing. There are a tremendous amount of variables. And instead of doing that testing and sharing results, people leave threads, keep builds closed, etc.

Of course, one game data doesn't describe the whole QB Heart issue, but one relevant game data can clearly show that primary receivers, at least in 3WR sets with the TE as primary, don't get held in. The chance that that is false given the sample sizes of relevant games used is low.

I asked you to post data on 2TE and 2WR plays. I'm not ignoring anything, but it seems you have no interest in adding to the discussion.

Oh, and for the record, in Rookie my QB didn't have much Heart. That came later. Does it matter even now? Still don't know.

Power HBs with 100 Power Running aren't considered extreme, but a QB with 100 heart is. Maybe that's correct and maybe it isn't.

I'm trying to figure out the answer, not dictate it.