Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Thunderoo
I've seen good results moving it up a bit from base; just so that DEs with low power tackling aren't forcing fumbles every second time you get sacked.

ive had this very argument before

i dont think going from 15 to 30 dbp really moves that needle very much, qb's simply don't fumble often enough in comparison to their throw attempts for that SP to be worth.

Lets be extremely generous and say you fumble 50% of the time you get sacked (lol). On a more or less passing focused team you are looking at anywhere from 1700-2000 pass attempts in a season. For the sake of argument i'll put that at 1800 (conservative) and lets also say you get sacked about 4 times a game for 120 sacks in the season. Plausible number.

In this example,
For every sack I am throwing 15 passes. (1:15)
For every fumble I am throwing 30 passes. (1:30)

Since if the play ends in a fumble our throwing attributes were useless and vice-versa, you can basically say in this example that every 1 SP invested into specifically not fumbling is the value equivalent of 30 SP into throwing abilities. Obviously that's not a very a practical conclusion because there is stuff like Heart that overlaps and SP as a value currency is kind of weak because of inconsistency, but it mostly serves it's purpose as illumination to how much more than the cost of the skill itself you sacrifice when you invest in niche situations like rarely fumbling.

Keep in mind you aren't fumbling 50% of the time (not even close) and you can throw much more than 1800 times if you really want to, easy.

Originally posted by Laggo
ive had this very argument before

i dont think going from 15 to 30 dbp really moves that needle very much, qb's simply don't fumble often enough in comparison to their throw attempts for that SP to be worth.

Lets be extremely generous and say you fumble 50% of the time you get sacked (lol). On a more or less passing focused team you are looking at anywhere from 1700-2000 pass attempts in a season. For the sake of argument i'll put that at 1800 (conservative) and lets also say you get sacked about 4 times a game for 120 sacks in the season. Plausible number.

In this example,
For every sack I am throwing 15 passes. (1:15)
For every fumble I am throwing 30 passes. (1:30)

Since if the play ends in a fumble our throwing attributes were useless and vice-versa, you can basically say in this example that every 1 SP invested into specifically not fumbling is the value equivalent of 30 SP into throwing abilities. Obviously that's not a very a practical conclusion because there is stuff like Heart that overlaps and SP as a value currency is kind of weak because of inconsistency, but it mostly serves it's purpose as illumination to how much more than the cost of the skill itself you sacrifice when you invest in niche situations like rarely fumbling.

Keep in mind you aren't fumbling 50% of the time (not even close) and you can throw much more than 1800 times if you really want to, easy.

I understand the argument you're making but completely disagree with how you portray those numbers; for starters the ratio is 1:15 in your example as the fumbling attributes play a roll if the QB is sacked but doesn't fumble. Secondly it's also hard to take a view of these numbers over an entire season as the quality of opposition varies so dramatically. Also the cost of a fumble can be substantially different depending on a large number of factors. For example I'd expect against various teams the sack rate is a lot higher than others.

My reference point on drop back grip is this game: http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/39466. (note this is way prior to the rattled mechanic which now that I think about it changes the argument a bit)

Tampa only wins because they get 6 sack fumbles; 2k sp spent in drop back grip probably halves that number. Imo that 2k sp or 15 points in drop back grip is vastly superior to 1.5 points in tech/accuracy/power. Yes you have very slightly reduced rolls when passing and the value of those points is hopefully not tested but when the game comes where your line is getting smoked and you give up 10+ sacks then the difference between 4 and 2 fumbles is massive.

I do potentially agree that from a career long perspective maybe the points aren't as quite useful (in my opinion it's close as you pretty much get 15 points for the final point of acc/tech/power); but I guarantee that every QB will have a game where they'll pay huge dividends.

Originally posted by Thunderoo
I understand the argument you're making but completely disagree with how you portray those numbers; for starters the ratio is 1:15 in your example as the fumbling attributes play a roll if the QB is sacked but doesn't fumble.

How often do you think QB's fumble on average %'wise with base stats, even at journey and up? The answer is not very often. 50% was a gross over-exaggeration to make a point, that estimate is probably 10x higher than it should be. You say "fumbling attributes play a roll if you don't fumble" but it's impossible to tell when your fumbling attributes prevented a fumble and the large majority of sacks are not fumbles even with 0 investment so it's still a moot point.

Originally posted by
Secondly it's also hard to take a view of these numbers over an entire season as the quality of opposition varies so dramatically.

This is also irrelevant when there are similar "stop your drive" mechanics in place when you pass the ball, such as # of downs and interceptions which are also effected by the quality of opposition. The difference is that you encounter/roll against those infinitely more than you do to not fumble; even if you got sacked 20 times if you are passing team you probably threw 3x that number.

Originally posted by
Also the cost of a fumble can be substantially different depending on a large number of factors. For example I'd expect against various teams the sack rate is a lot higher than others.

See above; it's still irrelevant because you face the same problems passing the ball - you just do it more often.

Originally posted by

My reference point on drop back grip is this game: http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/39466. (note this is way prior to the rattled mechanic which now that I think about it changes the argument a bit)

Tampa only wins because they get 6 sack fumbles; 2k sp spent in drop back grip probably halves that number.

This is a big assumption and I am pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Even if it did, you are talking about a Rookie game where most of the rolls are arbitrarily fucked with to allow people to make plays.

Originally posted by
Imo that 2k sp or 15 points in drop back grip is vastly superior to 1.5 points in tech/accuracy/power. Yes you have very slightly reduced rolls when passing and the value of those points is hopefully not tested but when the game comes where your line is getting smoked and you give up 10+ sacks then the difference between 4 and 2 fumbles is massive.

Comparing that 2k SP to 1.5 points in tech is a strawman; what about heart, or conditioning, or leadership or pass power (most QB's 5th passing stat so 2k goes a farther way). QB's don't really have as many points to go around as people think they do, there are a lot of secondaries that affect the play much more often than DBG does.

I am at the point now where my passing stats are so high I can get hurried 10 times and still throw 60-70% because rolls.

Originally posted by

I do potentially agree that from a career long perspective maybe the points aren't as quite useful (in my opinion it's close as you pretty much get 15 points for the final point of acc/tech/power); but I guarantee that every QB will have a game where they'll pay huge dividends.

For every game where you would have avoided a loss if you didn't fumble one less time, there are 7 other games where if you completed 55% instead of 50% of your passes (especially in third down/rz/2-minute situations) you would have won the game, but those are much easier to dismiss as "just a loss" without attributing any specific reason to it. It's easy to say "I didn't fumble and I didn't get sacked much, we lost cause we missed an fg/our defense sucks/they got lucky and broke an 80 yard play/etc. etc." the same way it's easy to say "Oh I fumbled 4 times this game obviously we would have won if I didn't fumble, should fix that right away".

Originally posted by bhall43
Currently I am not sure Drop Back Grip is really doing you much good unless you are trying to stay upright with balance and power. Much better off going the route of getting the ball out as quick as possible and moving well in the pocket.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/96113/3341565

Something cool happened there. Now work on carry awr and gold stiff arm!

Originally posted by Sean1995
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/96113/3341565

Something cool happened there. Now work on carry awr and gold stiff arm!
I built my S1 QB thinking that's how stiff arm was supposed to work... (so 5 seasons of a wasted SA), lets hope that's how it's supposed to work going forward...

Originally posted by Aeir

I built my S1 QB thinking that's how stiff arm was supposed to work... (so 5 seasons of a wasted SA), lets hope that's how it's supposed to work going forward...


I also figured that high intimidation and freight train can also help with breaking sack tackles.

this was neat today

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/99262/2696969

Originally posted by bhall43
this was neat today

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/99262/2696969

omgnewmetaimo

Originally posted by bhall43
this was neat today

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/99262/2696969

get out of the way stupid HB!

The results are in. Is drop back grip important?

No.

It is confirmed drop back power is pointless. Yes.

Originally posted by Mezirah
It is confirmed drop back power is pointless. Yes.

Not sure I would call it pointless. With that guy adding passing skills from here on out to his build that might be a pretty neat QB to have.