Warrior General Games

YEs Scace, you get multiple +1's Whe you get 10 tokesn tuo can level your Advanced item to the Equivalent of a Level 8 item. This means you can add +1 to one of its stats and MAYBE one of its special abilities, but presently just to one of the basic stats.. just like any item.

Since its a 'level 8' upgrade it costs you $2,500 + 10 tokens.

So you get +1 attribute point when you could have gotten +2.5 attribute points just by spending 4 bonus tokens instead of saving them to level an item. And since you have a basic equipment too, you can sopend the same amount of cash to level a piece of basic equipment. So you are net positive with basic and slightly behind with advanced as presently implemented.

You get to add the next +1 of multiple +1 adds when you earn another 10 bonus points, throw away another 2.5 SP's and spend now $12,500 on that equipment.

So now you are out a sum of 15,000$ and 5 SP's in return you get 2 sp's worth of attribute points added to equipment.

If you hadn't bought advance for the same 15,000$ you could have gotten +2 Sp's worth of attributes on basic equipment and 5 additional SP's from the 20 bonus tokens.

He was quite clear in that you can level it one time, per 10 bonus tokens. Thats only a single plus. He was only considering allowing you to add bonuses to non-attribute stats on the item like SA's and +/-%'s to perform certain actions.

Mind you, if you waste the points on that, your item falls further behind the SP point/Attribute bonus curves and you add to something that may only be situational while your attributes, especially on equipment are the best bang for the buck because they don' suffer from soft cap restrictions.

This is again why in my, to your reckoning, my overly complicated plan turns Advanced items into just more expensive basic items that you can add attributes to the 'normal' way and use your bonus tokens to actually increase the neat bonuses like +SA or +/1%'s or even purchase even more bonus to attributes.

In that overly complicated system, there is actually a benefit to the advanced item, thought it costs a lot more and the basic item becomes more flexible because of its reduced costs allowing players to have multiple equipment setups to match specific tactial requirements/needs for each game.

Another thought... in the current system, the "advantage" of advanced equipment over regular equipment is somewhat frontloaded. From the point of purchase onward, you're spending bonus tokens just to get +1 per attribute to keep it equal with what you'd have had with regular equipment... but the "additional benefit" remains constant... at least in real terms (although the "skill point equivalent" will grow as your stats and SAs are raised).

But assuming you keep the equipment upgraded to your level, once you get up into level 30 or so, the "skill point advantage" of bonus equipment vs. regular equipment only improves if the attributes or SAs that it is boosting hit another higher "soft cap" than before... which doesn't happen all that often... but the "skill point cost" of the equipment keeps going up (an additional 2.5 skill points per upgrade) no matter what.

Just something to bear in mind... while reducing the bonus token cost up front (like a 2-4-6-8-10 scale through level 32) improves the situation for level 30ish players... it doesn't change the diminishing return moving forward (in fact, exacerbates it if you keep increasing the cost past 10 tokens for future upgrades).

Some sort of additional bonus (either SAs or +%) are needed so that the skillpoint value of the equipment keeps growing over time just like the skillpoint cost grows over time. The ability to add an SA every level seems extreme though... perhaps just every other level? Like 8, 24, 40, etc.?

Finally, the overall "rate" of bonus token acquisition vs. the cost for advanced gear really limits you. Over the course of your first 4 seasons, most boosting players will hit at least level 32. In this time they'll have acquired a max of 64 total tokens... enough for 6 total upgrades along the way. To fully upgrade a single piece of advanced equipment at level 32 takes 5 of those upgrades. Thus the current system means that if you want to keep your equipment upgraded, you should have no more than 1 piece of advanced equipment.

I can understand not wanting to make it possible for people to fully upgrade all 4 pieces of advanced equipment if they focus on it exclusively... there's no tradeoff. But only being able to fully upgrade ONE piece of advanced gear seems a bit harsh the other direction. *shrug*

I don't think people realize how powerful some of these high level items are. Look through the forums at what people have already had drop for them, there are quite a few that are better with 0 upgrades than whatever +4 equipment they already have.

When more rares and set pieces get introduced, they will definitely take precedent over current equipment (plus they are a lot cheaper...some of these items cost like 60k and are better than items people have spent 1MM upgrading)

Originally posted by Stray Doug
Another thought... in the current system, the "advantage" of advanced equipment over regular equipment is somewhat frontloaded. From the point of purchase onward, you're spending bonus tokens just to get +1 per attribute to keep it equal with what you'd have had with regular equipment... but the "additional benefit" remains constant... at least in real terms (although the "skill point equivalent" will grow as your stats and SAs are raised).

But assuming you keep the equipment upgraded to your level, once you get up into level 30 or so, the "skill point advantage" of bonus equipment vs. regular equipment only improves if the attributes or SAs that it is boosting hit another higher "soft cap" than before... which doesn't happen all that often... but the "skill point cost" of the equipment keeps going up (an additional 2.5 skill points per upgrade) no matter what.

Just something to bear in mind... while reducing the bonus token cost up front (like a 2-4-6-8-10 scale through level 32) improves the situation for level 30ish players... it doesn't change the diminishing return moving forward (in fact, exacerbates it if you keep increasing the cost past 10 tokens for future upgrades).

Some sort of additional bonus (either SAs or +%) are needed so that the skillpoint value of the equipment keeps growing over time just like the skillpoint cost grows over time. The ability to add an SA every level seems extreme though... perhaps just every other level? Like 8, 24, 40, etc.?

Finally, the overall "rate" of bonus token acquisition vs. the cost for advanced gear really limits you. Over the course of your first 4 seasons, most boosting players will hit at least level 32. In this time they'll have acquired a max of 64 total tokens... enough for 6 total upgrades along the way. To fully upgrade a single piece of advanced equipment at level 32 takes 5 of those upgrades. Thus the current system means that if you want to keep your equipment upgraded, you should have no more than 1 piece of advanced equipment.

I can understand not wanting to make it possible for people to fully upgrade all 4 pieces of advanced equipment if they focus on it exclusively... there's no tradeoff. But only being able to fully upgrade ONE piece of advanced gear seems a bit harsh the other direction. *shrug*

You are assuming that all one can do is keep the equipment at your level. What if you are able to get +6 or +7 onto a piece of equipment and it has an addition to the SA tree when you're only level 34 or 35. That would sound pretty compelling, right? Well I have a +3 Agility, +1 Swat ball on one of my corners. If I train him on intense the rest of the season I'll get right around my 10th token and will have +4, +1 SA right around level 32. But I will get the +5 long before I hit level 40. Now if you try to load your player up with 4 pieces of the new equip, you won't be able to keep them all upgraded, but if you are wise about your purchases you can make it all work.

I think we should be able to store more than 10 bonus tokens. As a lvl 1 player, I don't want to waste my tokens upgrading a piece of special equipment that was available at level 1, I should be able to save all my tokens for 3 or 4 seasons and then when I'm level 32 and can get decent special equipment rolls, I will have the 40 tokens to upgrade it right away. In the 4-5 seasons to get to level 32 I would be able to save up almost enough tokens to upgrade two pieces of equipment. The trade off is the 20 SPs I could have gotten for it over the course of my players career to that point...

my reply box somehow got messed up the second part is me... not all quote...

Could veteran soldiers get these benefits as well?

Is it true that upgrading the Advanced EQ costs more money than doing the basic upgrades? If that is true I'd sure hope you can sell back your advanced EQ for a 100% refund on both the upgrade cash and the bonus tokens. Let the initial cost of the Advanced EQ be non-refundable. That would help teams immensely and allow people some flexibility in switching builds. They would still have to find a bunch of new EQ to upgrade again.

Here's my all out suggestion:

Make advanced Equipment buyable in the store with JUST a bonus other than +attribute. Like +3% to something, +1 to an SA, ect. Major %'s like Force a Fumble or Cause an interception would be 2%, while normal ones like make the tackle or break a tackle or deflect a pass would be 3%. You could upgrade the advanced equipment just like normal equipment, except that it would cost a lot more to do so. The 10 bonus tokens would add an addition +SA/+% to the advanced item. The % would increase by 2/3% (depending on what kind) per 10 tokens and the SA bonus +1 per 10 tokens. You could limit each SA's to a single piece of equipment to avoid 4 pieces of EQ with +4 SA each. The Advanced equipment attribute (not token) upgrades would cost the same as it does now, but you could lower the cost of upgrades for normal equipment significantly (like 500 per piece, 1000 per piece, 2000 per piece, make it double instead of quadruple) to make teams with low budgets still able to stay competitive while people who chose to go the advanced route still have a good advantage but at an enormous cost. You could also let people keep their current Equipment by just making it so that the +attributes already on them count as them having been upgraded by that much, and you could lower the %'s by however much to get them down to base level.

The current marketplace equipment stinks because:
1. Takes too long to upgrade via bonus token accumulation
2. Takes too long to find good pieces (which hurts the above even more)
3. Veteran players will never find pieces that are equivalent to their current equipment

Suggestion (as mentioned by others)
Slotting/socketing
Marketplace acts the same except items bought there are ONLY of the +% or +SA variety. Then you can apply them to current gear and level them up via 10 bonus tokens. This way the items are immediately helpful (added to current gear) AND there's a choice of upgrade path on the item or use bonus tokens for extra skill points.

it's not supposed to be easy to find some awesome upgrade as soon you open up the store for the first time, i think as long as there is some way for lvl 32+ players to upgrade equipment a couple levels without having to wait 2 seasons per piece that the current system is fine

really all that is needed is some kind of bonus token or attribute refund for selling normal equipment that will allow high-level players to put some of their money spent earlier on normal equipment into their new advanced stuff so that they aren't going to be retired before they can get their stuff upgraded to their character's level

i think somewhere around a 50% refund would be good because obviously allowing a level 32 player to just add +4 to advanced equipment right away would not be balanced at all, but if they can add +2 the equipment should be able to catch up to their player level in a reasonable amount of time

Originally posted by x21times20
it's not supposed to be easy to find some awesome upgrade as soon you open up the store for the first time, i think as long as there is some way for lvl 32+ players to upgrade equipment a couple levels without having to wait 2 seasons per piece that the current system is fine

really all that is needed is some kind of bonus token or attribute refund for selling normal equipment that will allow high-level players to put some of their money spent earlier on normal equipment into their new advanced stuff so that they aren't going to be retired before they can get their stuff upgraded to their character's level

i think somewhere around a 50% refund would be good because obviously allowing a level 32 player to just add +4 to advanced equipment right away would not be balanced at all, but if they can add +2 the equipment should be able to catch up to their player level in a reasonable amount of time

Hmm...what if you could "merge" like 50% of your existing item into an advanced? ex:

You have a basic shirt with +4 speed.
You buy a +2 speed, +1 SA advanced shirt.
You merge your basic into your advanced item, and now have a +4 speed, +1 SA item.

Could cost bonus tokens to keep it from being a loophole where you'd be able to upgrade all adv items super fast.

I guess that's kind of the "crafting" idea from earlier.

Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by x21times20

it's not supposed to be easy to find some awesome upgrade as soon you open up the store for the first time, i think as long as there is some way for lvl 32+ players to upgrade equipment a couple levels without having to wait 2 seasons per piece that the current system is fine

really all that is needed is some kind of bonus token or attribute refund for selling normal equipment that will allow high-level players to put some of their money spent earlier on normal equipment into their new advanced stuff so that they aren't going to be retired before they can get their stuff upgraded to their character's level

i think somewhere around a 50% refund would be good because obviously allowing a level 32 player to just add +4 to advanced equipment right away would not be balanced at all, but if they can add +2 the equipment should be able to catch up to their player level in a reasonable amount of time

Hmm...what if you could "merge" like 50% of your existing item into an advanced? ex:

You have a basic shirt with +4 speed.
You buy a +2 speed, +1 SA advanced shirt.
You merge your basic into your advanced item, and now have a +4 speed, +1 SA item.

Could cost bonus tokens to keep it from being a loophole where you'd be able to upgrade all adv items super fast.

I guess that's kind of the "crafting" idea from earlier.

i like that idea bort , would make me go shoping more looking for that equipment that might help me

Originally posted by Bort

Hmm...what if you could "merge" like 50% of your existing item into an advanced? ex:

You have a basic shirt with +4 speed.
You buy a +2 speed, +1 SA advanced shirt.
You merge your basic into your advanced item, and now have a +4 speed, +1 SA item.

Could cost bonus tokens to keep it from being a loophole where you'd be able to upgrade all adv items super fast.

I guess that's kind of the "crafting" idea from earlier.

yeah that's pretty much exactly along the lines of what i was thinking, and like you said you'll have to implement it in a way that will prevent people from abusing it by repeatedly buying normal equipment just to merge if they have their own team and are willing to spend a few million to upgrade their player's equipment

i think bonus tokens would probably be the way to go just because trying to directly merge 50% of +1 or +3 equipment would be messy since you can't currently add half of a point to equipment, of course i'm sure you could if decided that's what you want to do so it probably doesn't matter