8 ffum for all those SP...
Forum > Goal Line Blitz 2 > How long before the game is over ran by high conditioning speed or power backs?
Galactic Empire
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Nobody is saying Strip Tech doesn't help get more strips. The question is, is it worth it? I don't think it is. Especially since you aren't guaranteed to recover the fumble. That is a lot of SPs that can be used elsewhere.
Cuivienen
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Originally posted by MileHighShoes
power tackling, which has two functions (fumbles and combating power rushing)
This is a myth btw. True, power tackling is correlated with a very small increase in FFum, but not nearly enough to call it a function of power tackling. It's more like a small ancillary bonus, but a lot of people believe it is a core function of the skill.
power tackling, which has two functions (fumbles and combating power rushing)
This is a myth btw. True, power tackling is correlated with a very small increase in FFum, but not nearly enough to call it a function of power tackling. It's more like a small ancillary bonus, but a lot of people believe it is a core function of the skill.
Galactic Empire
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Originally posted by Cuivienen
This is a myth btw. True, power tackling is correlated with a very small increase in FFum, but not nearly enough to call it a function of power tackling. It's more like a small ancillary bonus, but a lot of people believe it is a core function of the skill.
Wrong as usual.
Vader forces a ton of fumbles and has never invested in strip tech. He has very high power tackle. And the fumbles are not against QBs. Most are against HBs.
This is a myth btw. True, power tackling is correlated with a very small increase in FFum, but not nearly enough to call it a function of power tackling. It's more like a small ancillary bonus, but a lot of people believe it is a core function of the skill.
Wrong as usual.
Vader forces a ton of fumbles and has never invested in strip tech. He has very high power tackle. And the fumbles are not against QBs. Most are against HBs.
Edited by Galactic Empire on Apr 27, 2016 08:25:57
Cuivienen
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Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Vader forces a ton of fumbles and has never invested in strip tech. He has very high power tackle. And the fumbles are not against QBs. Most are against HBs.
You realise we can see your players' stats, right? Why do you keep making blatantly incorrect claims.
He has forced 34 fumbles in 113 career games. That's not a ton, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of those were against CPU trash.
Guess what, players with zero invested in anything can still force a fumble. Hell, I've had rookie CPU guards force fumbles on ST in Vet. Must be all that power tackling that they literally can't invest a single SP in...
Vader forces a ton of fumbles and has never invested in strip tech. He has very high power tackle. And the fumbles are not against QBs. Most are against HBs.
You realise we can see your players' stats, right? Why do you keep making blatantly incorrect claims.
He has forced 34 fumbles in 113 career games. That's not a ton, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of those were against CPU trash.
Guess what, players with zero invested in anything can still force a fumble. Hell, I've had rookie CPU guards force fumbles on ST in Vet. Must be all that power tackling that they literally can't invest a single SP in...
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Cuivienen
This is a myth btw. True, power tackling is correlated with a very small increase in FFum, but not nearly enough to call it a function of power tackling. It's more like a small ancillary bonus, but a lot of people believe it is a core function of the skill.
Have to disagree here. It seems to me that power tackling is similar to power running, and that speed + power works well for defense.
Seven players had 20+ FFs last season. Four were LBs, and three were DEs.
(41) LB Dark Penetrator - 4.26 40yd, 35 reps
(38) LB Chuck Bednarik - 4.9 40yd, 43 reps
(31) DE Tony BracKenZ - 5.01 40yd, 32 reps
(28) LB Khal Drogo - 4.27 40yd, 40 reps
(22) LB Junior Seau - 4.95yd, 43 reps
(22) DE Tecmo J.J. Watt - 5.42 40yd, 30 reps
(20) DE Boris Marinin - 5.35 40yd, 36 reps
All had relatively high speed/power for their position/tier. If you look at all the players with 70+ sacks last season, most have FFs in the mid-teens or lower. Lawrence Taylor had 91 sacks (4.33 40yd/17 reps), yet 12 FFs. A far cry from other high power players with much less sacks. Soul Crusher(4.84/ 36 reps) is a SS who didn't rush the QB, but got 19 FFs. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/291595/3511186?player_id=145119 . Kolby Mattingly, Hit Em' Hard, Big Bang Theory all had 1 or less sacks and still put up 16 FFs, and all 3 were 40+ reps. So even with less high speed impacts, these safeties out performed a LB hitting a stationary QB at full speed 90+ times.
It's seems apparent that the laws of physics are in play for both offensive players like power running RBs, and also for power tackling defenders. I've never understood why power tackling is so undervalued when it affects both turnover/ratio, run stopping, and knocked loose passes. It's not even an expensive skill relative to power running.
This is a myth btw. True, power tackling is correlated with a very small increase in FFum, but not nearly enough to call it a function of power tackling. It's more like a small ancillary bonus, but a lot of people believe it is a core function of the skill.
Have to disagree here. It seems to me that power tackling is similar to power running, and that speed + power works well for defense.
Seven players had 20+ FFs last season. Four were LBs, and three were DEs.
(41) LB Dark Penetrator - 4.26 40yd, 35 reps
(38) LB Chuck Bednarik - 4.9 40yd, 43 reps
(31) DE Tony BracKenZ - 5.01 40yd, 32 reps
(28) LB Khal Drogo - 4.27 40yd, 40 reps
(22) LB Junior Seau - 4.95yd, 43 reps
(22) DE Tecmo J.J. Watt - 5.42 40yd, 30 reps
(20) DE Boris Marinin - 5.35 40yd, 36 reps
All had relatively high speed/power for their position/tier. If you look at all the players with 70+ sacks last season, most have FFs in the mid-teens or lower. Lawrence Taylor had 91 sacks (4.33 40yd/17 reps), yet 12 FFs. A far cry from other high power players with much less sacks. Soul Crusher(4.84/ 36 reps) is a SS who didn't rush the QB, but got 19 FFs. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/291595/3511186?player_id=145119 . Kolby Mattingly, Hit Em' Hard, Big Bang Theory all had 1 or less sacks and still put up 16 FFs, and all 3 were 40+ reps. So even with less high speed impacts, these safeties out performed a LB hitting a stationary QB at full speed 90+ times.
It's seems apparent that the laws of physics are in play for both offensive players like power running RBs, and also for power tackling defenders. I've never understood why power tackling is so undervalued when it affects both turnover/ratio, run stopping, and knocked loose passes. It's not even an expensive skill relative to power running.
Cuivienen
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
Have to disagree here.
You can disagree. Fwiw, I have run tests in the sim with controls, and my opinion is based on that. You can read the results in the PUP testing thread if you can find them buried in there somewhere.
Originally posted by BoDiddley
Seven players had 20+ FFs last season. Four were LBs, and three were DEs.
(41) LB Dark Penetrator - 4.26 40yd, 35 reps
(38) LB Chuck Bednarik - 4.9 40yd, 43 reps
(31) DE Tony BracKenZ - 5.01 40yd, 32 reps
(28) LB Khal Drogo - 4.27 40yd, 40 reps
(22) LB Junior Seau - 4.95yd, 43 reps
(22) DE Tecmo J.J. Watt - 5.42 40yd, 30 reps
(20) DE Boris Marinin - 5.35 40yd, 36 reps
All had relatively high speed/power for their position/tier. If you look at all the players with 70+ sacks last season, most have FFs in the mid-teens or lower. Lawrence Taylor had 91 sacks (4.33 40yd/17 reps), yet 12 FFs. A far cry from other high power players with much less sacks. Soul Crusher(4.84/ 36 reps) is a SS who didn't rush the QB, but got 19 FFs. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/291595/3511186?player_id=145119 . Kolby Mattingly, Hit Em' Hard, Big Bang Theory all had 1 or less sacks and still put up 16 FFs, and all 3 were 40+ reps. So even with less high speed impacts, these safeties out performed a LB hitting a stationary QB at full speed 90+ times.
It's seems apparent that the laws of physics are in play for both offensive players like power running RBs, and also for power tackling defenders. I've never understood why power tackling is so undervalued when it affects both turnover/ratio, run stopping, and knocked loose passes. It's not even an expensive skill relative to power running.
None of that is wrong, but I think you may has misread what I stated. I did not say Power Tackling does nothing at all whatsoever for FFUM. I said FFUM is not a core function of the skill, as it only gives a small bonus to FFUM. Everything you posted above confirms my statement.
Also, I think you may be underestimating the impact of grip and RNG on FFUM.
Have to disagree here.
You can disagree. Fwiw, I have run tests in the sim with controls, and my opinion is based on that. You can read the results in the PUP testing thread if you can find them buried in there somewhere.
Originally posted by BoDiddley
Seven players had 20+ FFs last season. Four were LBs, and three were DEs.
(41) LB Dark Penetrator - 4.26 40yd, 35 reps
(38) LB Chuck Bednarik - 4.9 40yd, 43 reps
(31) DE Tony BracKenZ - 5.01 40yd, 32 reps
(28) LB Khal Drogo - 4.27 40yd, 40 reps
(22) LB Junior Seau - 4.95yd, 43 reps
(22) DE Tecmo J.J. Watt - 5.42 40yd, 30 reps
(20) DE Boris Marinin - 5.35 40yd, 36 reps
All had relatively high speed/power for their position/tier. If you look at all the players with 70+ sacks last season, most have FFs in the mid-teens or lower. Lawrence Taylor had 91 sacks (4.33 40yd/17 reps), yet 12 FFs. A far cry from other high power players with much less sacks. Soul Crusher(4.84/ 36 reps) is a SS who didn't rush the QB, but got 19 FFs. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/291595/3511186?player_id=145119 . Kolby Mattingly, Hit Em' Hard, Big Bang Theory all had 1 or less sacks and still put up 16 FFs, and all 3 were 40+ reps. So even with less high speed impacts, these safeties out performed a LB hitting a stationary QB at full speed 90+ times.
It's seems apparent that the laws of physics are in play for both offensive players like power running RBs, and also for power tackling defenders. I've never understood why power tackling is so undervalued when it affects both turnover/ratio, run stopping, and knocked loose passes. It's not even an expensive skill relative to power running.
None of that is wrong, but I think you may has misread what I stated. I did not say Power Tackling does nothing at all whatsoever for FFUM. I said FFUM is not a core function of the skill, as it only gives a small bonus to FFUM. Everything you posted above confirms my statement.
Also, I think you may be underestimating the impact of grip and RNG on FFUM.
Cuivienen
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Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Wrong as usual.
Vader forces a ton of fumbles and has never invested in strip tech. He has very high power tackle. And the fumbles are not against QBs. Most are against HBs.
So I just ran the numbers comparing my DT to your LB.
My DT has 45.5 sacks, 76 tackles, 104 assists and 6 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 2.7% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
Your LB has 3.5 sacks, 585 tackles, 524 assists and 34 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 3.1% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
My DT has 13 power tackling and 11 strip tech. What does your LB have there? Were all those SP worth a 0.4% higher FFum rate?
Maybe it is to you. It isn't to me.
Wrong as usual.
Vader forces a ton of fumbles and has never invested in strip tech. He has very high power tackle. And the fumbles are not against QBs. Most are against HBs.
So I just ran the numbers comparing my DT to your LB.
My DT has 45.5 sacks, 76 tackles, 104 assists and 6 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 2.7% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
Your LB has 3.5 sacks, 585 tackles, 524 assists and 34 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 3.1% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
My DT has 13 power tackling and 11 strip tech. What does your LB have there? Were all those SP worth a 0.4% higher FFum rate?
Maybe it is to you. It isn't to me.
Edited by Cuivienen on Apr 27, 2016 09:42:48
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Cuivienen
None of that is wrong, but I think you may has misread what I stated. I did not say Power Tackling does nothing at all whatsoever for FFUM. I said FFUM is not a core function of the skill, as it only gives a small bonus to FFUM. Everything you posted above confirms my statement.
Also, I think you may be underestimating the impact of grip and RNG on FFUM.
Fair enough, I just disagreed with the "small" bonus part. The increase relative to number of impact opportunities is actually pretty significant. Those PuP tests are very interesting though, thanks for referencing it. May need to run some test builds focusing on speed+power defenders for a larger sample size, since league game results seems to differ from PuP results. Likely a matter of CPU builds vs human builds(which typically neglect grip).
None of that is wrong, but I think you may has misread what I stated. I did not say Power Tackling does nothing at all whatsoever for FFUM. I said FFUM is not a core function of the skill, as it only gives a small bonus to FFUM. Everything you posted above confirms my statement.
Also, I think you may be underestimating the impact of grip and RNG on FFUM.
Fair enough, I just disagreed with the "small" bonus part. The increase relative to number of impact opportunities is actually pretty significant. Those PuP tests are very interesting though, thanks for referencing it. May need to run some test builds focusing on speed+power defenders for a larger sample size, since league game results seems to differ from PuP results. Likely a matter of CPU builds vs human builds(which typically neglect grip).
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Cuivienen
So I just ran the numbers comparing my DT to your LB.
My DT has 45.5 sacks, 76 tackles, 104 assists and 6 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 2.7% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
Your LB has 3.5 sacks, 585 tackles, 524 assists and 34 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 3.1% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
My DT has 13 power tackling and 11 strip tech. What does your LB have there? Were all those SP worth a 0.4% higher FFum rate?
Maybe it is to you. It isn't to me.
To be fair to GE, these aren't quite the right numbers to compare. We're not even sure what Vader's power tackling SP was his rook/soph season. There's a clear boost up to 10 FFs in Seasoned, and he's now at 20 FFs with some games to go. Also not sure how many FFs come from assisted tackles. His current high impact ratio (FF/tkl+sacks) is 16.7%, and your DT is 3.7%. So one out of every 6 high impacts Vader has results in a FF, while the DT is 1 out of every 26 impacts. For a LB who runs around making 100+ tackles a season, that's significant for a team's turnover ratio. Vader's missed tackle ratio is also good which speak to the larger meta issue.
I think it's similar to the broken tackle ratios we see the first few seasons for HBs, but ramps up for powerbacks as they gain 30+ reps.
So I just ran the numbers comparing my DT to your LB.
My DT has 45.5 sacks, 76 tackles, 104 assists and 6 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 2.7% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
Your LB has 3.5 sacks, 585 tackles, 524 assists and 34 FFum in his career. Divide the last number by the sum of the first three, and you get a FFum rate of 3.1% per impact with a player that didn't result in a broken tackle instead.
My DT has 13 power tackling and 11 strip tech. What does your LB have there? Were all those SP worth a 0.4% higher FFum rate?
Maybe it is to you. It isn't to me.
To be fair to GE, these aren't quite the right numbers to compare. We're not even sure what Vader's power tackling SP was his rook/soph season. There's a clear boost up to 10 FFs in Seasoned, and he's now at 20 FFs with some games to go. Also not sure how many FFs come from assisted tackles. His current high impact ratio (FF/tkl+sacks) is 16.7%, and your DT is 3.7%. So one out of every 6 high impacts Vader has results in a FF, while the DT is 1 out of every 26 impacts. For a LB who runs around making 100+ tackles a season, that's significant for a team's turnover ratio. Vader's missed tackle ratio is also good which speak to the larger meta issue.
I think it's similar to the broken tackle ratios we see the first few seasons for HBs, but ramps up for powerbacks as they gain 30+ reps.
Cuivienen
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
May need to run some test builds focusing on speed+power defenders
That's actually why I chose a FS. Momentum is definitely a factor, and I wanted to test with a dot that would be running into tackles from a distance to build up momentum. But I could argue that physicals do more for momentum to help FFum than Power Tackling does.
May need to run some test builds focusing on speed+power defenders
That's actually why I chose a FS. Momentum is definitely a factor, and I wanted to test with a dot that would be running into tackles from a distance to build up momentum. But I could argue that physicals do more for momentum to help FFum than Power Tackling does.
bhall43
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Originally posted by MadCow420
I think it can be stopped, But not with the defenses people are used to building. But once people start building teams to stop these HBs, those defenses will likely be weak in other areas and there will be something to take advantage of it.
seems like an unrealistic amount of stuff is needed defensively to combat the explosion of the offensive combinations of speed/conditioning/power/toughness, conditioning/power/toughness, speed/elusiveness/conditioning/toughness, and a passing game to boot.
sure you can build your defense really fast and hope for the best, but you are going to be killed spending all that sp towards being fast enough by the power teams. a guy like deevee's back will wear your team out eventually with several broken tackles a play. Seems you need decent amounts of toughness/intimidation on your own side beyond the tackling skills and awareness levels as well.
I think it can be stopped, But not with the defenses people are used to building. But once people start building teams to stop these HBs, those defenses will likely be weak in other areas and there will be something to take advantage of it.
seems like an unrealistic amount of stuff is needed defensively to combat the explosion of the offensive combinations of speed/conditioning/power/toughness, conditioning/power/toughness, speed/elusiveness/conditioning/toughness, and a passing game to boot.
sure you can build your defense really fast and hope for the best, but you are going to be killed spending all that sp towards being fast enough by the power teams. a guy like deevee's back will wear your team out eventually with several broken tackles a play. Seems you need decent amounts of toughness/intimidation on your own side beyond the tackling skills and awareness levels as well.
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