Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Parab00n

I love it that all you guys who didn't invest into Quickness are now pissed that your super fast straight line guys can't change directions for shit. Makes it even worse to the right side where defenders are forced to do a 270 degree turn.


The issue isn't changing directions, it's getting caught in traffic.

Originally posted by Aeir
The issue isn't changing directions, it's getting caught in traffic.

You sure about that? Watch the LILB

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227156/2483796
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227156/2483804
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227156/2484060

Now, for a play that you ran that was actually pretty good against it.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227156/2483259
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227156/2483745

Originally posted by Parab00n
This is about the dumbest shit that's posted here, at what point of the play do defenders abandon their blitz? You guys who think blitzing is the answer are going to be the first ones crying when defenders are running right past plays they should be making because you want them to stick to their assignment.

b00n - I like you - but you are going full xavori in this thread...protecting the play that you abuse.


runners used to run right past the ball carrier when they missed their blitz awareness check....that is THE POINT OF BLITZ AWARENESS. When I see my players do it...I add to blitz awareness (even in rookie it was needed for ZEB to do decently against a 2WR sweep).

I'm not debating with you anymore on this -- it's not YOU I have to convince...

also: if having GE as one of the only people on your side here doesn't make you think maybe it is you...I don't know what will.

Originally posted by TxSteve
b00n - I like you - but you are going full xavori in this thread...protecting the play that you abuse.


runners used to run right past the ball carrier when they missed their blitz awareness check....that is THE POINT OF BLITZ AWARENESS. When I see my players do it...I add to blitz awareness (even in rookie it was needed for ZEB to do decently against a 2WR sweep).

I'm not debating with you anymore on this -- it's not YOU I have to convince...

also: if having GE as one of the only people on your side here doesn't make you think maybe it is you...I don't know what will.

As someone who oftens lobbies Bort and Corndog to change shit, let me say that showing up without testing shit for yourself is worthless. You are showing up with blanket stats and saying its broken. You want it changed, prove its broken.

Besides I'm actually providing evidence that you can slow down the play and will continue to do so with 5 scrims today.

Here is the first.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/227873

I will continue to adjust the gameplans to fit each team better, DD is very slow on defense so DA's HB is a terrible match-up for them. I also added in a couple plays that weren't great. Don't just look at the stats of the game, stats don't show you where a defender was in perfect place to make the stop and just missed the tackle. Actually watch the game and then form an opinion. Both teams this game ran the same offense and same defense. The offense will for the most part stay the same, unless there are other 3 WR plays you guys want to see.

Offense: 50% Medium 50% Outside for the most part, end of game tactics kicked in at the end.

Trips Counter is 5 stared, every other Outside rush is 1 starred. All 3 WR stuff.

TE Post and WR Hook are 5 starred, everything else 1 starred. All 3 WR Stuff.

First scrim:

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/227873

DD's offense averaged 3.7 YPC on 17 carries with Trips HB Counter. Some plays worked much better than others.

Strong Cloud 3-2-6 was pretty terrible giving up over 10 YPC. The rest, did pretty amazing.

DD's offense converted TE Post and WR Hook at a 61% rate, not amazing defense but I would classify that as being at least average at both.


DA's offense averaged 6.6 YPC on 27 carries with Trips HB Counter. Much better than DD, but probably expected with the match-up. The worst play was again Strong Cloud but it was much better for DD than it was DA resulting in 1 TFL which dropped down the average quite a bit.

DA's offense averaged around a 66% completion rate which is pretty bad for a defense, DD isn't really built to run man defensive plays so maybe that's expected. Overall I'd say it was a good defensive effort for both teams considering it was just a blanket gameplan with no thought put into it. I'll run 4 more today and try to fine tune each one to fit each team better to see if these results are a fluke.

Originally posted by Parab00n
You and everyone else just said exactly what I said you were, you want 1 play that can defend against everything. I just showed you numerous plays that are effective against it. Numerous people came in here saying that it can't defend against the pass and the Counter, THAT IS THE POINT OF A BALANCED OFFENSE. Newsflash, you can run more than 1 type of play in a game for defense!

+1000000

Originally posted by Parab00n

I love it that all you guys who didn't invest into Quickness are now pissed that your super fast straight line guys can't change directions for shit. Makes it even worse to the right side where defenders are forced to do a 270 degree turn.


I am about the only agent who thinks quickness is one of the most important skills.

all we are doing is re-hashing the GL QB Rollout arguments.

Going back to season 5/6/7/8 - could SOME teams generally contain it? Yes (mine was one that could).

But was it good for the game?
Was it good for newb owners to get demolished by it?
Was it reasonable and logical that players got bunched up and removed from the play?
Does it make sense that a LB directed to blitz outside and hold contain on that side instead abandons his assignment and bolts for the far sideline?


I will accept: there are a few teams that are built and able to contain it.

My main problem which I will keep reiterating: the defenders do not do what they are supposed to do according to the playbooks. If the players are doing what they are supposed to do in bortdogs eyes -- then the graphics for those plays needs to be changed to a dotted line instead of a solid line.

I understand that you think that will create new problems. My opinion is different than yours.

Alright, so 2nd scrim was a huge difference for DA where pretty much everything they ran worked great because Tach was able to beat my defenders to the outside no matter if they had good angles or not.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/227881


DD's offense managed a 5.0 YPC on 18 carries with Trips Counter, all plays did fairly well. A couple of the gains were because the CB who should be lined up over the TE was for some reason put on the Trips side.

DD's offense completed WR Hook and TE Post at a 44% completion rate on 38 attempts.

DA's offense managed a 12.8 YPC on 17 Trips Counters which is pretty terrible. For the most part, it was just Tach being Tach and beating my defenders to the edge which should be expected when my fastest LB has 65 speed. Interestingly enough, DD had a 53% TFL rate on Trips Counter but with the big plays it gave up pretty much failed. Just so you can see how bad DD's pursuit was this game, they gave up 15.8 YPC to Trips Pitch on 6 carries.

DA's offense managed around 66% completion rate on TE Post and WR Hook on 25 attempts. Probably will be a trend with these plays and my defenders not being able to stop passing.

hoping to get to look at this stuff closer a little later - but do want to say that I GREATLY appreciate you spending your own flex to test / evaluate and share that info with everyone.

Thank you.

If I had a way to transfer 150 flex to you to share the cost - I would. (and if DD sees this and is willing - feel free to transfer 150 flex from my account to b00ns).

Originally posted by TxSteve
hoping to get to look at this stuff closer a little later - but do want to say that I GREATLY appreciate you spending your own flex to test / evaluate and share that info with everyone.

Thank you.

If I had a way to transfer 150 flex to you to share the cost - I would. (and if DD sees this and is willing - feel free to transfer 150 flex from my account to b00ns).

Agreed. Much appreciated you are taking the time to try this out.

That being said, I think the numbers from DA's perspective seem to show where the issue lies. The Elusive, somewhat high quickness backs seem to be ridiculous in the Counter play. DA averaged 9 YPC over the first two scrims against DD and 7.1 YPA.

I'm not sure how one can make the argument that 7 - 8 YPA for TE Drive etc. are considered ridiculous and that we can't have more passing plays like that... then turn around and defend a rushing play averaging 10+ YPC. I do agree with Steve a bit in that you are defending a play which you have benefited from significantly.

Like QB rushes, I will continue abusing the Trips HB Counter as long as it is left unchanged... No Name has a speed back in Alex (a more refined version of Tachlyon IMO) that has absolutely destroyed defenses with the Trips Counter. SACKS has a speed back in Wes Craven, and HoF has a combo back in Barry (who, by the way, is #1 in rookie offensive MVP ahead of all the QBs... that is unheard of in rookie... and that is pretty much almost solely because of the Trips HB Counter play). But personally I think it would be more interesting to call Os that don't revolve around 3WR passing and running the ball and making DC's guess which play you're going to call that game.

As AZ posted in the suggestions forum, I think fixing blitzer reaction would go a long way to making the counter plays reasonable again.

3rd Scrim - Another beatdown by DA, DD just can't handle all the headfakes and eventually crumbles from playing so poorly as the game goes on. DA isn't have any issues slowing down DD and has did so in all 3 scrims. This was the first game that I tailored each gameplan slightly for each team and removed the plays that they performed the worse in. I also added in a couple new plays to see how they worked.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/227891


DD averaged 3.7 YPC on 19 carries with Trips Counter. Pretty safe to say at this point that not every team can spam it.

DD averaged around a 41% completion rate on TE Post and WR Hook, I would say this probably isn't realistic and more so to do with playing so poorly throughout the game. Although DA does have some pretty amazing CBs and a great coverage LB.


DA averaged 11.4 YPC on 25 carries with Trips Counter. This is pretty skewed by 2 runs which they broke for 80 and 55 yards each. Other wise, the plays work pretty great. I'll break down each of these runs.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227891/2542137

This play actually worked fairly well up until this point, not much really to say besides that it just didn't work this time.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227891/2541559

This is one of the new plays I added in. I liked the fact that it should leave 2 CBs on the strong side, or so I thought. It doesn't, it sticks that extra CB on the Trips side. I wouldn't use this play unless something is changed on the CB placement.

DA once again killed DD on passing, giving up a 70% completion to TE Post and WR Hook on 34 attempts.

This is pretty much what every pass looks like with Head and Pump Fakes.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/227891/2541440

Originally posted by FairForever
Agreed. Much appreciated you are taking the time to try this out.

That being said, I think the numbers from DA's perspective seem to show where the issue lies. The Elusive, somewhat high quickness backs seem to be ridiculous in the Counter play. DA averaged 9 YPC over the first two scrims against DD and 7.1 YPA.

I'm not sure how one can make the argument that 7 - 8 YPA for TE Drive etc. are considered ridiculous and that we can't have more passing plays like that... then turn around and defend a rushing play averaging 10+ YPC. I do agree with Steve a bit in that you are defending a play which you have benefited from significantly.

Like QB rushes, I will continue abusing the Trips HB Counter as long as it is left unchanged... No Name has a speed back in Alex (a more refined version of Tachlyon IMO) that has absolutely destroyed defenses with the Trips Counter. SACKS has a speed back in Wes Craven, and HoF has a combo back in Barry (who, by the way, is #1 in rookie offensive MVP ahead of all the QBs... that is unheard of in rookie... and that is pretty much almost solely because of the Trips HB Counter play). But personally I think it would be more interesting to call Os that don't revolve around 3WR passing and running the ball and making DC's guess which play you're going to call that game.

As AZ posted in the suggestions forum, I think fixing blitzer reaction would go a long way to making the counter plays reasonable again.

Watch the scrims and gameflow, don't just post blanket stats. How many times did DD have DAs HBs in the backfield for a loss just to miss a tackle?

Originally posted by Parab00n
Watch the scrims and gameflow, don't just post blanket stats. How many times did DD have DAs HBs in the backfield for a loss just to miss a tackle?

Why wouldn't I post blanket stats? If it was a one-off play then yes, there is significant variance. 69 playcalls would statistically be quite significant. It doesn't matter if there was a defender in the backfield every single play if they aren't able to make the tackle against a Tachylon-type HB.

Over the 3 games, DA posted 9.9 YPC on 69 attempts running the play. DA also passed for 8.0 Yards per Attempt and a 67% completion with 0 sacks in those three games (essentially, the plays you ran that "limited" DA to 9.9 YPC were not particularly effective against the pass either).