Warrior General Games

Originally posted by tpaterniti
Exactly. Tactics were added to allow for more player specification, player specification was not added to give coordinators more to do. When the game started it was just the most basic tactics and everything centered around player building. The first batch of players were RPG and MMO fans mostly. Some of them didn't even watch football. It was actually about half and half. A lot of those guys have either left or just stay for the forums and I would bet close to 90% or more are football people now.

The problem is the devs aren't.

Originally posted by beenlurken
This is the first and last RPG I will ever play. I came here as a football fan. My only real interest in this game is seeing my dots and/or the dots I coordinate do stuff in competitive games (want to see cool plays in meaningful games). I could careless how inflated the stats/scores are so long as the game follows the general theme of football.

Meaningful games is the key here.

My whole point is to make more of them.

And not just in the 8 games you would get a season if you filtered out the top 1% of the dots in the game and played THEM together.

But in every single game of the season for every single team, or as close to that as you can get.

Originally posted by markm6770
I'm a D&D nerd originally. Played from 1980-1989. It's no wonder I never got laid as a teenager.... I was too busy slaying dragons!





LOL I started in 76? Whenever the blue box D&D came out. Right after the pamphlets.

Originally posted by yello1
Originally posted by markm6770

I'm a D&D nerd originally. Played from 1980-1989. It's no wonder I never got laid as a teenager.... I was too busy slaying dragons!



LOL I started in 76? Whenever the blue box D&D came out. Right after the pamphlets.

I started playing in late 70s too. Had the original DM Guide, Monster Manual and Players Handbook.

Originally posted by yello1
A 100 Speed CB WOULD still leave the 160 Speeder in the dust, duh. Just the way the fastest WR will leave the slowest CB in the dust in the NFL. I just do not want him to leave him further in the dust than would happen in the NFL, ever.

This is the crux of our disagreement. In your world, a low speed CB would be competitive, because he would be only as slow as an NFL corner.

In my world, the low speed corner would play elsewhere where he could successfully compete for a job. He would not have the opportunity to get scorched by the world class athletes in World League and in the Pros. Perhaps he could provide for his family in regional pro?

Originally posted by yello1

What this would do is keep the other CB closer but still lost in the dust... they might be close enough that if they had a good diving tackle attempt in, or had an energy edge that more often they could still make the play even if they were on average not as good as the receiver.


So you mean... "it's OK if he's a shit corner with substandard speed... with lucky roll he might make the play anyway." How does that make sense? Plenty of games are already being decided by shitty rolls and bad luck. You want to increase that? Do you honestly think that Off Topica should have a chance to beat Buda if you were to get a few lucky rolls? NO WAY would that be right.

"Any given Sunday" should ONLY apply when there is parity in the league. Otherwise, the game is blind luck based on coin flips. When that happens, people will stop game planning and stop caring.

Originally posted by yello1
The fastest WR in the NFL is ALWAYS the fastest WR in the NFL but he doesnt get wide open and score a touch down every down nor even once a series or possession. In GLB however you can have builds that are that dominant that they DO score almost at will -

Sorry, never saw that in the elite leagues coming up to the pros.

In World League, the highest total of rushing TDs is 29 and the highest total of receiving TDs is 23. A tad high, but definitely not "scoring at will."

Originally posted by yello1
...which gives you 100 point losses like your team suffers in WL.

I only wish I had a World League team. Doesn't look like I'll have one next season either... but that's OK. To be the best, you gotta beat the best. Not ask Bort for a handout or handicap.


Originally posted by yello1
That sort of silliness drives people away from the game (if you do not think so, think again exactly why you need league contraction). The good dots should be better. And it should matter. But they should not be soooo much better that its not worth playing the game.

We need league contraction because the game needs new blood (advertising). This game has lasted a LONG time for a "simple" browser based game. There simply are not enough good agents/owners/coordinators to have 8 competitive leagues. We'd need 288 very good teams to make that model work.... and there just isn't enough talent to make that a reality.

Originally posted by markm6770
This is the crux of our disagreement. In your world, a low speed CB would be competitive, because he would be only as slow as an NFL corner.

In my world, the low speed corner would play elsewhere where he could successfully compete for a job. He would not have the opportunity to get scorched by the world class athletes in World League and in the Pros. Perhaps he could provide for his family in regional pro?

Yes of course he would be better off on a field without 160 WRs on it.

But thats not what happens. And there is no sign of that being what happens.

So we have to deal with the reality as it is, which is that piss poor builds compete against much better builds in each and every league from World League to Pee Wee.

And as the simulation is one of professional football, not sand lot ball or a nerf ball game at the girl scout camp, the game would be a better simulation if those piss poor builds were not as horrible by comparison to the better build as they are now.


Originally posted by
So you mean... "it's OK if he's a shit corner with substandard speed... with lucky roll he might make the play anyway." How does that make sense? Plenty of games are already being decided by shitty rolls and bad luck. You want to increase that? Do you honestly think that Off Topica should have a chance to beat Buda if you were to get a few lucky rolls? NO WAY would that be right.

"Any given Sunday" should ONLY apply when there is parity in the league. Otherwise, the game is blind luck based on coin flips. When that happens, people will stop game planning and stop caring.

You played D&D. How much fun would it be playing a dungeon where the mobs were all ten levels lower than the party?

The GLB needs mobs that are better able to compete with the party.

Thats what I mean. Plain and simple. Because the opposite sucks and it makes the mobs quit and the game boring for the party.

If Bort keeps GMing like that, no one is going to go to his game sessions any more.

Originally posted by
Sorry, never saw that in the elite leagues coming up to the pros.

In World League, the highest total of rushing TDs is 29 and the highest total of receiving TDs is 23. A tad high, but definitely not "scoring at will."

Did you see the link to someone's World League team that was beaten 100 to X several times this season? The link is above to whoever it was. Watch those games.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=4948

There are 60 minutes of play. 100 points is 14 scores or so. That is a score for the winning team every four minutes on average, including the time the other team is winding up to punt.

You may not think that is not "scoring at will" but it is.

Originally posted by
We need league contraction because the game needs new blood (advertising). This game has lasted a LONG time for a "simple" browser based game. There simply are not enough good agents/owners/coordinators to have 8 competitive leagues. We'd need 288 very good teams to make that model work.... and there just isn't enough talent to make that a reality.

We need league contraction because we need new players?

Name one MMO that contracted its "servers" and then increased its player population.

Far more often, if not always, contraction is the first exit toward shuttering the game or it being run as a hobby by a fanatical player out of his mother's basement.

As for the idea specifically applied to GLB, we had all these leagues precisely because we used to have alot of players to fill them. Bort shuffled the teams by talent level, tiered the leagues, all the jive you all are asking for.

That did not keep people from leaving, because league contraction is not good enough. There are only 32 teams in World League and there are still 100 point wins in there.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=4948

You need to balance dot construction and player interactions (fumble chances etc) to achieve balance, not make 90% of the players not play in the top tier.

It is the ONLY real answer.

Originally posted by tet
I started playing in late 70s too. Had the original DM Guide, Monster Manual and Players Handbook.

Yeah

For some idiotic reason I threw them out, including the old brown Gygax booklet.

Could probably score pretty nicely with them on Ebay now.

Originally posted by yello1

That did not keep people from leaving, because league contraction is not good enough. There are only 32 teams in World League and there are still 100 point wins in there.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=4948


I often wonder if you are trolling.

The World League team you linked has inactive players, a CPU dot, and several declining players. That same team was also a playoff team in World League the previous season, so they did actually earn their spot.

Their record and poor performance is solely because they failed to notify support to request reset or demotion. They obviously are not caring. Not caring at the World League level will certainly get you buried.

As i have said many times... its a parity issue. Replace the bottom two teams with the #33 and #34 ranked teams, and that whole league is crazy competitive.

There are actually two answers. Advertise or contract. Either grow the game to get more players to the highest tiers, or shrink the highest tiers to concentrate the talent.

Originally posted by yello1
Did you see the link to someone's World League team that was beaten 100 to X several times this season? The link is above to whoever it was. Watch those games.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=4948

There are 60 minutes of play. 100 points is 14 scores or so. That is a score for the winning team every four minutes on average, including the time the other team is winding up to punt.

You may not think that is not "scoring at will" but it is.

There are only 32 teams in World League and there are still 100 point wins in there.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=4948

yello... dont talk about things that you know nothing about.

Dong Energy is not trying. It is a joke team. The team went CPU after it lost in first round of playoffs. Mo bought the team. It should have never been allowed to stay in the WL.

Look at the last 10 years of WL. The parity there is incredible.

Originally posted by markm6770
There are actually two answers. Advertise or contract. Either grow the game to get more players to the highest tiers, or shrink the highest tiers to concentrate the talent.

This

Its amazing how hard it is for yello to grasp something so simple.

Originally posted by yello1
Originally posted by beenlurken

This is the first and last RPG I will ever play. I came here as a football fan. My only real interest in this game is seeing my dots and/or the dots I coordinate do stuff in competitive games (want to see cool plays in meaningful games). I could careless how inflated the stats/scores are so long as the game follows the general theme of football.

Meaningful games is the key here.

My whole point is to make more of them.

And not just in the 8 games you would get a season if you filtered out the top 1% of the dots in the game and played THEM together.

But in every single game of the season for every single team, or as close to that as you can get.

No you want to create close games that are based off of luck. Games that are based off of luck are devoid of meaning.

Originally posted by beenlurken
No you want to create close games that are based off of luck. Games that are based off of luck are devoid of meaning.

Damn beenlurken... that's it exactly. Summed up in one line what I've been trying to say for several pages.

Originally posted by markm6770
I often wonder if you are trolling.

The World League team you linked has inactive players, a CPU dot, and several declining players. That same team was also a playoff team in World League the previous season, so they did actually earn their spot.

Their record and poor performance is solely because they failed to notify support to request reset or demotion. They obviously are not caring. Not caring at the World League level will certainly get you buried.

As i have said many times... its a parity issue. Replace the bottom two teams with the #33 and #34 ranked teams, and that whole league is crazy competitive.

There are actually two answers. Advertise or contract. Either grow the game to get more players to the highest tiers, or shrink the highest tiers to concentrate the talent.



Look stop advocating and start listening.

WL Is the ultimate example of "contraction". Its filtered for the 32 best teams in the league every season. You have to win a championship from the top 2nd to 9th best leagues containing the 33rd-288th best teams in the game to get in and then you have to be in the top half of those top 32 to stay.

You can not ask for "contraction" to do any better than that.

And yet, the Dong team stands there as an example of non-competitive play in the World League.

It is living proof that your misconception that having fewer leagues will make the game better.

It just won't, not consistently and not well enough to matter - not as to the imbalanced games.

Yes warm body wise some lower leagues should be pared because there aren't enough players left.

But the elite and national pros do not need this.

What they need is better game balance - and that means in part a tighter build system to promote competitive play.

That is the reality.

So long as it is ignored, lop sided games and declining customer interest will be the result.

OK.... let's try a different tactic. You've posted your solution and have one person on board (you). I've posted my take on things and have 7 on board with me. What does that tell you?

Tell me again who's solution is going to cost the game more players?

Dong sold their team and quit caring. That's a parity issue, as they should have been filtered out of WL. Using Dong Energy as an example of what is wrong with the game is supporting my argument, not yours.

Please find another World League team that is not playing games with "realistic" final scores.

Originally posted by beenlurken
No you want to create close games that are based off of luck. Games that are based off of luck are devoid of meaning.

No, I am not, and no they aren't.

Starting with the latter, let me expound.

Every game outside of checkers and chess involves luck elements.Otherwise games would all be Chess, slow boring and humans would never play as well as a computer. That is devoid of meaning.

Which is not to say that some folks do not enjoy Chess. But most prefer a more exciting game with elements of chance to create unpredictability.

That unpredictability brings excitement and variation.

That is a good thing.

But that is not to say that I want the game to be totally driven by chance. Indeed I am not asking for the game's random chances to be changed at all (other than where they need to be reduced percentage wise for realism such as in FFumbles etc).

What I want is the EXISTING chance elements to be more relevant in more plays.

Right now a players performance on any given play will fall into a range, wherein it will mostly fall in the middle but has lows and highs as various inputs come into play such as energy and morale and SAs and VAs and Vision checks etc. The end result might be imagined as a Bell Curve with the dots basic mechanical performance is the highest chance and his worst performance the low end and his high the high end with those extremes being unlikely indeed.

That exists as we type and read here.

But it often plays no role in a game because player Awesomes Bell curve is ten feet to the right of Player So Sos and they do not overlap at all.

What I want to do is push the bell curves of the players closer together, so that if So So is having a good play and Awesome a off play, then So So may be able to beat Awesome that down more often.

That increases the fun.

For everyone.

Because it adds unpredictability. So that the game against the 1 EL worse team might be worth watching rather than a LOL win no one even bothers to game plan for.

And in the process we also get a game that more closely resembles the subject of the simulation - the NFL - wherein on any given Sunday.....