Forum > Suggestions > New Advanced Equipment and Balancing it for Vet Player
RAPB
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Originally posted by SCACE
i guess my point here rapb is the opportunity cost every time you level the item, and the possible cost it took you to find the item.
10 bonus tokens = 2.5 SP's + 12.5 1-game boosts to an attribute. Multiply that out over 6 or 7 upgrades, plus the fact that it will cost more $$$ than normal equipment to upgrade (under the proposed idea) and you have offsetting value.
In my example, the guy used 60 tokens to upgrade.
60 tokens = 15 Skill Points
15 Skill Points for +2 in your highest attribute AND +7 in a SA? A no brainer...
Cash will only limit the poorer teams - so the "rich getting richer". Not a good arguement i.m.h.o.
I think any ideas need to accomplish 2 things:
- keep going to the shop worth the time and missing out the token
- keep the player happy and free to decide once he found a adv. equipment piece he likes
Enkidu98's idea got some balance, but too few action. It's basically another step as you upgrade your regular equipment.
Maybe there should be temporary items, like a "get +1 SA Super Vision for next 6 games" - featuring small prices and extra equipment spots? Just anything that will make the players come to the store frequently and get something useful there even for small prices.
i guess my point here rapb is the opportunity cost every time you level the item, and the possible cost it took you to find the item.
10 bonus tokens = 2.5 SP's + 12.5 1-game boosts to an attribute. Multiply that out over 6 or 7 upgrades, plus the fact that it will cost more $$$ than normal equipment to upgrade (under the proposed idea) and you have offsetting value.
In my example, the guy used 60 tokens to upgrade.
60 tokens = 15 Skill Points
15 Skill Points for +2 in your highest attribute AND +7 in a SA? A no brainer...
Cash will only limit the poorer teams - so the "rich getting richer". Not a good arguement i.m.h.o.
I think any ideas need to accomplish 2 things:
- keep going to the shop worth the time and missing out the token
- keep the player happy and free to decide once he found a adv. equipment piece he likes
Enkidu98's idea got some balance, but too few action. It's basically another step as you upgrade your regular equipment.
Maybe there should be temporary items, like a "get +1 SA Super Vision for next 6 games" - featuring small prices and extra equipment spots? Just anything that will make the players come to the store frequently and get something useful there even for small prices.
EpsteinsMother
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The thread I was in was locked and I was pointed here.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
Enkidu98
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Originally posted by SCACE
Response to Endiku
#1 - all new players get 7 training points, as per Bort
I didn't see that. Thanks. I just wanted to ensure it was addressed.
Originally posted by SCACE
#2 - I don't agree with lowering the cost of basic equipment, that system is working as intended with growing stadiums bringing in oodles of cash.
Something needs to differentiate Basic Equipment from advanced. If advanced is too good, no reason to buy basic. Making Basic Equipment Cheaper but not quite as good as advanced means players have choices. They can own _several_ sets of basic equipment with attributes tailored for certain roles. If you know you are going up against a monster DE as a LOT, you can wear the equipment that shifts your attributes in the right direction to try to stop him better.
This also adds to the game as it creates the possibility of a money sink. So all those stadiums making all that money have players asking for MORE of that money so they can customise their basic equipment pieces better. So this takes money out of the economy AND it gives owners/coaches more options for tactics by having players wear the right 'combination' of basic equipment for their needs.
Originally posted by SCACE
#3 - I agree with advanced equipment having a higher cost than basic, obviously. But it shouldn't be set in stone. It should depend on the benefit from the equipment.
I stated the same. Initial cost is always more expensive but a 'flat' rate. This allows a players first dip into the advanced equipment pool to be a 'uniform' purchase. A new player doesn't get screwed because they couldn't afford any of the advanced stuff offered up.
As they customise it with later levels, prices begin to vary and can grow quite high.
Originally posted by SCACE
#4 - Disagree...random is good, cost/benefit and gives players choice and risk/reward. The only thing that needs to be changed is to give players more relevant choices from the store.
You obviously didn't read the proposal. Random was not scrapped. Random was use at every level/enhancement opportunity. Where random was removed was that at level 32 you didn't have random combinations of already chosen special abilities. This was creating far to many useless items and so just wastes time for the players and coding work for the programmers. It wasn't beneficially random.
The SAME risk/reward system remains in place. Your advanced bonus when you first buy the item is _random_ a choice of three unless you reset per the present system then you get three more random choices. Each time you advance the item, you have three _random_ available choices. The only way to reset these is per the present system with a shopping token and shop reset.
The only random bit removed is the combinations. Players get to choose which random choice they add to their previous random choice.
Originally posted by SCACE
#5 - Don't entirely disagree, but being able to choose your own colour kind of defeats the idea of building sets to get an extra boost -- one would assume the sets would be built by colour, and if you could choose the colour its too easy to build a set.
Why would one presume that? Are NFL uniforms a uniform colour? Why wouldn't sets be distinguished by item name? Linebacker's Intimidating Helmet + Linebacker's Intimidating Gloves + Linebacker's Intimidating Cleats + Linebacker's Intimidating Jersey.
Player just chooses the colour of the icon. So aesthetically they aren;t stuck with a frilly pink tutu and a lime green helmet.
Originally posted by SCACE
#6+ TLDR
just skimmed, but under your proposal it fits, even though I feel it is over complicated.
Its hardly over complicated. I just presented it in a step by step means so that Bort could envision the system in use. Its not any more complicated then present equipment purchasing.
Originally posted by SCACE
Simply ensuring that the equipment in the store is at least even with the current level, including bonus + $$$ cost, but adds more variety than normal equipment (SA bonuses, %'s, etc.) should be a simple enough tweak, and ensuring the the upgrade not only gives you the attribute +1, but a +1 to the other bonuses as well, be it an SA or a %, should be enough to make it attractive.
The idea, I believe, is to give people a choice between normal and advanced and have them work together. Under your proposed system, I don't think I would bother with normal equipment at all and just work to find the best advanced equipment I could, which upgrades better than normal and eventually leads, from what I read, to a much more powerful set of equipment.
This system ensures that equipment avialable via the store is able to be made to roughly equivalent (with a small boost in power but at significantly greater price) with basic equipment. Its simple to tweak and upgrade. Uses the same 10 bonus tokens to add an ability system, but limits this with escalating costs based on type of ability and number of identical bonuses.
This gives people a choice between advanced and basic equipment and they work together. In fact basic equipment becomes MORE valuable because several sets can be mixed and matched together to optimise a player for a game situation. Yes, you can create amore powerful set with advanced equipment but the price is, because of the reduction in basic equipment costs) far greater. Also it takes significant time and effort to upgrade the equipment because to _optimise_ the set how you want takes multiple resets of the store, each reset taking one days worth of training and only giving you three possible new options. Since there are well into the double digit bonus options already, the odds of you getting the exact ones you want, at random, each time you visit, are very low.
Yes, a piece of equipment built up over the course of about 12 months of real time (EG something worn by a capped player who is nearing forced retirement) can be very powerful, but they will likely be playing against people with like equipment.
I think perhaps instead of tl;dr you should actually pay some attention and read.
Response to Endiku
#1 - all new players get 7 training points, as per Bort
I didn't see that. Thanks. I just wanted to ensure it was addressed.
Originally posted by SCACE
#2 - I don't agree with lowering the cost of basic equipment, that system is working as intended with growing stadiums bringing in oodles of cash.
Something needs to differentiate Basic Equipment from advanced. If advanced is too good, no reason to buy basic. Making Basic Equipment Cheaper but not quite as good as advanced means players have choices. They can own _several_ sets of basic equipment with attributes tailored for certain roles. If you know you are going up against a monster DE as a LOT, you can wear the equipment that shifts your attributes in the right direction to try to stop him better.
This also adds to the game as it creates the possibility of a money sink. So all those stadiums making all that money have players asking for MORE of that money so they can customise their basic equipment pieces better. So this takes money out of the economy AND it gives owners/coaches more options for tactics by having players wear the right 'combination' of basic equipment for their needs.
Originally posted by SCACE
#3 - I agree with advanced equipment having a higher cost than basic, obviously. But it shouldn't be set in stone. It should depend on the benefit from the equipment.
I stated the same. Initial cost is always more expensive but a 'flat' rate. This allows a players first dip into the advanced equipment pool to be a 'uniform' purchase. A new player doesn't get screwed because they couldn't afford any of the advanced stuff offered up.
As they customise it with later levels, prices begin to vary and can grow quite high.
Originally posted by SCACE
#4 - Disagree...random is good, cost/benefit and gives players choice and risk/reward. The only thing that needs to be changed is to give players more relevant choices from the store.
You obviously didn't read the proposal. Random was not scrapped. Random was use at every level/enhancement opportunity. Where random was removed was that at level 32 you didn't have random combinations of already chosen special abilities. This was creating far to many useless items and so just wastes time for the players and coding work for the programmers. It wasn't beneficially random.
The SAME risk/reward system remains in place. Your advanced bonus when you first buy the item is _random_ a choice of three unless you reset per the present system then you get three more random choices. Each time you advance the item, you have three _random_ available choices. The only way to reset these is per the present system with a shopping token and shop reset.
The only random bit removed is the combinations. Players get to choose which random choice they add to their previous random choice.
Originally posted by SCACE
#5 - Don't entirely disagree, but being able to choose your own colour kind of defeats the idea of building sets to get an extra boost -- one would assume the sets would be built by colour, and if you could choose the colour its too easy to build a set.
Why would one presume that? Are NFL uniforms a uniform colour? Why wouldn't sets be distinguished by item name? Linebacker's Intimidating Helmet + Linebacker's Intimidating Gloves + Linebacker's Intimidating Cleats + Linebacker's Intimidating Jersey.
Player just chooses the colour of the icon. So aesthetically they aren;t stuck with a frilly pink tutu and a lime green helmet.
Originally posted by SCACE
#6+ TLDR
just skimmed, but under your proposal it fits, even though I feel it is over complicated.Its hardly over complicated. I just presented it in a step by step means so that Bort could envision the system in use. Its not any more complicated then present equipment purchasing.
Originally posted by SCACE
Simply ensuring that the equipment in the store is at least even with the current level, including bonus + $$$ cost, but adds more variety than normal equipment (SA bonuses, %'s, etc.) should be a simple enough tweak, and ensuring the the upgrade not only gives you the attribute +1, but a +1 to the other bonuses as well, be it an SA or a %, should be enough to make it attractive.
The idea, I believe, is to give people a choice between normal and advanced and have them work together. Under your proposed system, I don't think I would bother with normal equipment at all and just work to find the best advanced equipment I could, which upgrades better than normal and eventually leads, from what I read, to a much more powerful set of equipment.
This system ensures that equipment avialable via the store is able to be made to roughly equivalent (with a small boost in power but at significantly greater price) with basic equipment. Its simple to tweak and upgrade. Uses the same 10 bonus tokens to add an ability system, but limits this with escalating costs based on type of ability and number of identical bonuses.
This gives people a choice between advanced and basic equipment and they work together. In fact basic equipment becomes MORE valuable because several sets can be mixed and matched together to optimise a player for a game situation. Yes, you can create amore powerful set with advanced equipment but the price is, because of the reduction in basic equipment costs) far greater. Also it takes significant time and effort to upgrade the equipment because to _optimise_ the set how you want takes multiple resets of the store, each reset taking one days worth of training and only giving you three possible new options. Since there are well into the double digit bonus options already, the odds of you getting the exact ones you want, at random, each time you visit, are very low.
Yes, a piece of equipment built up over the course of about 12 months of real time (EG something worn by a capped player who is nearing forced retirement) can be very powerful, but they will likely be playing against people with like equipment.
I think perhaps instead of tl;dr you should actually pay some attention and read.
SCACE
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Enks - or you could present your idea in a more concise, easy to read fashion. I got as far through it as I had time for. This doesn't need to be overly complicated, and I still feel your idea is more complicated than what is required to make this work.
Just my $0.02.
Just my $0.02.
SCACE
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Originally posted by RAPB
Originally posted by SCACE
i guess my point here rapb is the opportunity cost every time you level the item, and the possible cost it took you to find the item.
10 bonus tokens = 2.5 SP's + 12.5 1-game boosts to an attribute. Multiply that out over 6 or 7 upgrades, plus the fact that it will cost more $$$ than normal equipment to upgrade (under the proposed idea) and you have offsetting value.
In my example, the guy used 60 tokens to upgrade.
60 tokens = 15 Skill Points
15 Skill Points for +2 in your highest attribute AND +7 in a SA? A no brainer...
Cash will only limit the poorer teams - so the "rich getting richer". Not a good arguement i.m.h.o.
I think any ideas need to accomplish 2 things:
- keep going to the shop worth the time and missing out the token
- keep the player happy and free to decide once he found a adv. equipment piece he likes
Enkidu98's idea got some balance, but too few action. It's basically another step as you upgrade your regular equipment.
Maybe there should be temporary items, like a "get +1 SA Super Vision for next 6 games" - featuring small prices and extra equipment spots? Just anything that will make the players come to the store frequently and get something useful there even for small prices.
I think Bort has stated that the temp boost items are a big missing piece that he had planned to put in, and we'll see them soon.
And again, everyone has the opportunity to buy and upgrade an advanced piece, and under the current structure, it really only makes sense to buy and upgrade 1 of the 4 spots as advanced.
And for those that do not buy the advanced equipment, they can use the bonus tokens for 1 game boosts and free SP (up to 4 per season). So there is a trade-off -- the free SP come with no extreme cash cost, which the advanced equipment with those bonuses would have extreme cash costs.
I think if you ran it through, it would show the advanced equipment as a legit idea, but not the only one that could be useful for a player or team based on the free SP gained through 4 bonus token trade-ins and the cash savings by not having advanced equipment to upgrade.
Originally posted by SCACE
i guess my point here rapb is the opportunity cost every time you level the item, and the possible cost it took you to find the item.
10 bonus tokens = 2.5 SP's + 12.5 1-game boosts to an attribute. Multiply that out over 6 or 7 upgrades, plus the fact that it will cost more $$$ than normal equipment to upgrade (under the proposed idea) and you have offsetting value.
In my example, the guy used 60 tokens to upgrade.
60 tokens = 15 Skill Points
15 Skill Points for +2 in your highest attribute AND +7 in a SA? A no brainer...
Cash will only limit the poorer teams - so the "rich getting richer". Not a good arguement i.m.h.o.
I think any ideas need to accomplish 2 things:
- keep going to the shop worth the time and missing out the token
- keep the player happy and free to decide once he found a adv. equipment piece he likes
Enkidu98's idea got some balance, but too few action. It's basically another step as you upgrade your regular equipment.
Maybe there should be temporary items, like a "get +1 SA Super Vision for next 6 games" - featuring small prices and extra equipment spots? Just anything that will make the players come to the store frequently and get something useful there even for small prices.
I think Bort has stated that the temp boost items are a big missing piece that he had planned to put in, and we'll see them soon.
And again, everyone has the opportunity to buy and upgrade an advanced piece, and under the current structure, it really only makes sense to buy and upgrade 1 of the 4 spots as advanced.
And for those that do not buy the advanced equipment, they can use the bonus tokens for 1 game boosts and free SP (up to 4 per season). So there is a trade-off -- the free SP come with no extreme cash cost, which the advanced equipment with those bonuses would have extreme cash costs.
I think if you ran it through, it would show the advanced equipment as a legit idea, but not the only one that could be useful for a player or team based on the free SP gained through 4 bonus token trade-ins and the cash savings by not having advanced equipment to upgrade.
shield.bearer
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Originally posted by EpsteinsMother
The thread I was in was locked and I was pointed here.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
The idea behind the Advanced EQ is to indiviualize players more. If you want realistic football, then you have to indiviualize.
Are Jerry Rice and Randy Moss the same player? No. Are both incredible in their own way? Yes.
The failure here is in the limited scope. In Bort's (admirable and understandable) attempt to maintain balance, he has created junk. The ONLY value I can find in the Advanced EQ as currently constituted is this: +1 on tree SA's that bypass useless SA's. Otherwise, why would we buy this stuff? The +% doesn't upgrade. the +SA doesn't upgrade (making off tree SA's useless, since Bort Almighty has already told us that SA's are no good until they are 6+), and the regular + Attribute requires 10 bonus tokens to upgrade. That's 2.5 +1 SP's (and the +5 attribute boosts) that I can't use.
If this Advance EQ is going to be worthwhile, we have to be able to upgrade each aspect. I agree that we have to maintain some balance, but we also have to maintain some INTEREST...
The thread I was in was locked and I was pointed here.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
The idea behind the Advanced EQ is to indiviualize players more. If you want realistic football, then you have to indiviualize.
Are Jerry Rice and Randy Moss the same player? No. Are both incredible in their own way? Yes.
The failure here is in the limited scope. In Bort's (admirable and understandable) attempt to maintain balance, he has created junk. The ONLY value I can find in the Advanced EQ as currently constituted is this: +1 on tree SA's that bypass useless SA's. Otherwise, why would we buy this stuff? The +% doesn't upgrade. the +SA doesn't upgrade (making off tree SA's useless, since Bort Almighty has already told us that SA's are no good until they are 6+), and the regular + Attribute requires 10 bonus tokens to upgrade. That's 2.5 +1 SP's (and the +5 attribute boosts) that I can't use.
If this Advance EQ is going to be worthwhile, we have to be able to upgrade each aspect. I agree that we have to maintain some balance, but we also have to maintain some INTEREST...
EpsteinsMother
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Originally posted by shield.bearer
Originally posted by EpsteinsMother
The thread I was in was locked and I was pointed here.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
The idea behind the Advanced EQ is to indiviualize players more. If you want realistic football, then you have to indiviualize.
Are Jerry Rice and Randy Moss the same player? No. Are both incredible in their own way? Yes.
The failure here is in the limited scope. In Bort's (admirable and understandable) attempt to maintain balance, he has created junk. The ONLY value I can find in the Advanced EQ as currently constituted is this: +1 on tree SA's that bypass useless SA's. Otherwise, why would we buy this stuff? The +% doesn't upgrade. the +SA doesn't upgrade (making off tree SA's useless, since Bort Almighty has already told us that SA's are no good until they are 6+), and the regular + Attribute requires 10 bonus tokens to upgrade. That's 2.5 +1 SP's (and the +5 attribute boosts) that I can't use.
If this Advance EQ is going to be worthwhile, we have to be able to upgrade each aspect. I agree that we have to maintain some balance, but we also have to maintain some INTEREST...
Yes, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are different players. The difference is in their skills -- they're not the same player with different gloves. The game already has different attributes to place skill points in to individualize the players.
I think fame and endorsements would add much more day-to-day interest in the game. Advanced equipment would have to upgrade slowly -- otherwise it might as well just be extra skill points. Once you've decided on a piece of equipment, how riveting is it going to be to wait a season to get the tokens to upgrade it one level?
Advanced equipment just seems like something that takes away from the realism of the game and doesn't really fix anything.
Originally posted by EpsteinsMother
The thread I was in was locked and I was pointed here.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
The idea behind the Advanced EQ is to indiviualize players more. If you want realistic football, then you have to indiviualize.
Are Jerry Rice and Randy Moss the same player? No. Are both incredible in their own way? Yes.
The failure here is in the limited scope. In Bort's (admirable and understandable) attempt to maintain balance, he has created junk. The ONLY value I can find in the Advanced EQ as currently constituted is this: +1 on tree SA's that bypass useless SA's. Otherwise, why would we buy this stuff? The +% doesn't upgrade. the +SA doesn't upgrade (making off tree SA's useless, since Bort Almighty has already told us that SA's are no good until they are 6+), and the regular + Attribute requires 10 bonus tokens to upgrade. That's 2.5 +1 SP's (and the +5 attribute boosts) that I can't use.
If this Advance EQ is going to be worthwhile, we have to be able to upgrade each aspect. I agree that we have to maintain some balance, but we also have to maintain some INTEREST...
Yes, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are different players. The difference is in their skills -- they're not the same player with different gloves. The game already has different attributes to place skill points in to individualize the players.
I think fame and endorsements would add much more day-to-day interest in the game. Advanced equipment would have to upgrade slowly -- otherwise it might as well just be extra skill points. Once you've decided on a piece of equipment, how riveting is it going to be to wait a season to get the tokens to upgrade it one level?
Advanced equipment just seems like something that takes away from the realism of the game and doesn't really fix anything.
shield.bearer
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Originally posted by EpsteinsMother
Originally posted by shield.bearer
Originally posted by EpsteinsMother
The thread I was in was locked and I was pointed here.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
The idea behind the Advanced EQ is to indiviualize players more. If you want realistic football, then you have to indiviualize.
Are Jerry Rice and Randy Moss the same player? No. Are both incredible in their own way? Yes.
The failure here is in the limited scope. In Bort's (admirable and understandable) attempt to maintain balance, he has created junk. The ONLY value I can find in the Advanced EQ as currently constituted is this: +1 on tree SA's that bypass useless SA's. Otherwise, why would we buy this stuff? The +% doesn't upgrade. the +SA doesn't upgrade (making off tree SA's useless, since Bort Almighty has already told us that SA's are no good until they are 6+), and the regular + Attribute requires 10 bonus tokens to upgrade. That's 2.5 +1 SP's (and the +5 attribute boosts) that I can't use.
If this Advance EQ is going to be worthwhile, we have to be able to upgrade each aspect. I agree that we have to maintain some balance, but we also have to maintain some INTEREST...
Yes, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are different players. The difference is in their skills -- they're not the same player with different gloves. The game already has different attributes to place skill points in to individualize the players.
I think fame and endorsements would add much more day-to-day interest in the game. Advanced equipment would have to upgrade slowly -- otherwise it might as well just be extra skill points. Once you've decided on a piece of equipment, how riveting is it going to be to wait a season to get the tokens to upgrade it one level?
Advanced equipment just seems like something that takes away from the realism of the game and doesn't really fix anything.It depends on how you look at it. I realize we aren't really a RPG. That makes it easy for me to see equipment for what it is. Just another place to sink points to get the desired effect from an attribute. Forget the D&D comparisons. Nothing about this is roleplaying. Those "+3 Gloves of Uber Catching" are really just Jerry Rice's amazing hands.
If you want to find a reason not to like something, it's always going to be there...
Originally posted by shield.bearer
Originally posted by EpsteinsMother
The thread I was in was locked and I was pointed here.
If equipment had to be changed, I think removing it completely would have been a much better choice. I'm here for a football sim, not Dungeons and Dragons.
RPG doesn't have to automatically mean clothing with special attributes. There's plenty of role playing to be found in assigning skill points, signing contracts, and playing on a team. Fame and endorsements sound like interesting (and realistic) changes to give player agents more to do.
I didn't much care for the equipment before, but this change looks like the game is going a direction that's not the one I want to go. That's a shame, because this game could become an amazing multi-player football simulation.
The idea behind the Advanced EQ is to indiviualize players more. If you want realistic football, then you have to indiviualize.
Are Jerry Rice and Randy Moss the same player? No. Are both incredible in their own way? Yes.
The failure here is in the limited scope. In Bort's (admirable and understandable) attempt to maintain balance, he has created junk. The ONLY value I can find in the Advanced EQ as currently constituted is this: +1 on tree SA's that bypass useless SA's. Otherwise, why would we buy this stuff? The +% doesn't upgrade. the +SA doesn't upgrade (making off tree SA's useless, since Bort Almighty has already told us that SA's are no good until they are 6+), and the regular + Attribute requires 10 bonus tokens to upgrade. That's 2.5 +1 SP's (and the +5 attribute boosts) that I can't use.
If this Advance EQ is going to be worthwhile, we have to be able to upgrade each aspect. I agree that we have to maintain some balance, but we also have to maintain some INTEREST...
Yes, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are different players. The difference is in their skills -- they're not the same player with different gloves. The game already has different attributes to place skill points in to individualize the players.
I think fame and endorsements would add much more day-to-day interest in the game. Advanced equipment would have to upgrade slowly -- otherwise it might as well just be extra skill points. Once you've decided on a piece of equipment, how riveting is it going to be to wait a season to get the tokens to upgrade it one level?
Advanced equipment just seems like something that takes away from the realism of the game and doesn't really fix anything.It depends on how you look at it. I realize we aren't really a RPG. That makes it easy for me to see equipment for what it is. Just another place to sink points to get the desired effect from an attribute. Forget the D&D comparisons. Nothing about this is roleplaying. Those "+3 Gloves of Uber Catching" are really just Jerry Rice's amazing hands.
If you want to find a reason not to like something, it's always going to be there...
EpsteinsMother
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Originally posted by shield.bearer
If you want to find a reason not to like something, it's always going to be there...
I put money into this game about a week after I started playing it. Why would I be looking for a reason not to like it?
I'm not looking for a reason not to like the equipment. I like the idea of a realistic football sim, and the new equipment (and the old equipment) detract from the realism for me. I just think that skill points are enough to differentiate players and that there were probably better ways (fame, endorsements) to add interest for player agents.
If you want to find a reason not to like something, it's always going to be there...
I put money into this game about a week after I started playing it. Why would I be looking for a reason not to like it?
I'm not looking for a reason not to like the equipment. I like the idea of a realistic football sim, and the new equipment (and the old equipment) detract from the realism for me. I just think that skill points are enough to differentiate players and that there were probably better ways (fame, endorsements) to add interest for player agents.
Last edited Sep 19, 2008 20:35:00
The Immortal One
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Originally posted by Stray Doug
Say I get a pretty nice, rare piece of equipment worth +3 attribute and +1 SA. I'm level 32. I can spend 50 bonus tokens to make it a +8 attribute and +1 SA.
That means I've sacrificed 12.5 skill points of bonus tokens for this piece of equipment. This type of equipment is rare to begin with, and it's going to be even rarer that the particular +3 attribute and +1 SA that it is boosting are worth 12.5 skill points (compared to upgrading them directly)... and if so, probably not by much.
Another way of looking at this is at level 32 I could spend 20 bonus tokens upgrading the equipment and making it +5 attribute and +1 SA. This means I'm getting a +1 SA advantage over traditional equipment, but spending 5 skill points (in the form of bonus tokens) to do it. Again, rare that I have an SA that high.
And this isn't even to mention the opportunity cost of however many times I trained normal instead of intense to find the equipment (missing out on bonus tokens along the way)... as well as the opportunity cost of the +5 single-game boosts.
The "skill point equivalents" that you have to spend on upgrading equipment via bonus tokens are just way too high right now for there really to be a tradeoff. And given the # of tokens you need to acquire, having more than 1 piece of advanced equipment just seems even more absurd.
+1 this is very well said. Advanced Equip is just not good enough o justify buying.
Say I get a pretty nice, rare piece of equipment worth +3 attribute and +1 SA. I'm level 32. I can spend 50 bonus tokens to make it a +8 attribute and +1 SA.
That means I've sacrificed 12.5 skill points of bonus tokens for this piece of equipment. This type of equipment is rare to begin with, and it's going to be even rarer that the particular +3 attribute and +1 SA that it is boosting are worth 12.5 skill points (compared to upgrading them directly)... and if so, probably not by much.
Another way of looking at this is at level 32 I could spend 20 bonus tokens upgrading the equipment and making it +5 attribute and +1 SA. This means I'm getting a +1 SA advantage over traditional equipment, but spending 5 skill points (in the form of bonus tokens) to do it. Again, rare that I have an SA that high.
And this isn't even to mention the opportunity cost of however many times I trained normal instead of intense to find the equipment (missing out on bonus tokens along the way)... as well as the opportunity cost of the +5 single-game boosts.
The "skill point equivalents" that you have to spend on upgrading equipment via bonus tokens are just way too high right now for there really to be a tradeoff. And given the # of tokens you need to acquire, having more than 1 piece of advanced equipment just seems even more absurd.
+1 this is very well said. Advanced Equip is just not good enough o justify buying.
SCACE
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Originally posted by bedgood42
Originally posted by Stray Doug
Say I get a pretty nice, rare piece of equipment worth +3 attribute and +1 SA. I'm level 32. I can spend 50 bonus tokens to make it a +8 attribute and +1 SA.
That means I've sacrificed 12.5 skill points of bonus tokens for this piece of equipment. This type of equipment is rare to begin with, and it's going to be even rarer that the particular +3 attribute and +1 SA that it is boosting are worth 12.5 skill points (compared to upgrading them directly)... and if so, probably not by much.
Another way of looking at this is at level 32 I could spend 20 bonus tokens upgrading the equipment and making it +5 attribute and +1 SA. This means I'm getting a +1 SA advantage over traditional equipment, but spending 5 skill points (in the form of bonus tokens) to do it. Again, rare that I have an SA that high.
And this isn't even to mention the opportunity cost of however many times I trained normal instead of intense to find the equipment (missing out on bonus tokens along the way)... as well as the opportunity cost of the +5 single-game boosts.
The "skill point equivalents" that you have to spend on upgrading equipment via bonus tokens are just way too high right now for there really to be a tradeoff. And given the # of tokens you need to acquire, having more than 1 piece of advanced equipment just seems even more absurd.
+1 this is very well said. Advanced Equip is just not good enough o justify buying.
At the current rate yes...but if you can upgrade the SA portion (or %) along with the attribute at +1 per 8 levels (I think it can be worth it) and Bort seemed open to this scenario a few pages back.
Originally posted by Stray Doug
Say I get a pretty nice, rare piece of equipment worth +3 attribute and +1 SA. I'm level 32. I can spend 50 bonus tokens to make it a +8 attribute and +1 SA.
That means I've sacrificed 12.5 skill points of bonus tokens for this piece of equipment. This type of equipment is rare to begin with, and it's going to be even rarer that the particular +3 attribute and +1 SA that it is boosting are worth 12.5 skill points (compared to upgrading them directly)... and if so, probably not by much.
Another way of looking at this is at level 32 I could spend 20 bonus tokens upgrading the equipment and making it +5 attribute and +1 SA. This means I'm getting a +1 SA advantage over traditional equipment, but spending 5 skill points (in the form of bonus tokens) to do it. Again, rare that I have an SA that high.
And this isn't even to mention the opportunity cost of however many times I trained normal instead of intense to find the equipment (missing out on bonus tokens along the way)... as well as the opportunity cost of the +5 single-game boosts.
The "skill point equivalents" that you have to spend on upgrading equipment via bonus tokens are just way too high right now for there really to be a tradeoff. And given the # of tokens you need to acquire, having more than 1 piece of advanced equipment just seems even more absurd.
+1 this is very well said. Advanced Equip is just not good enough o justify buying.
At the current rate yes...but if you can upgrade the SA portion (or %) along with the attribute at +1 per 8 levels (I think it can be worth it) and Bort seemed open to this scenario a few pages back.
Stray Doug
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I don't think he implied that SA boosts for equipment would be "along with" the attribute +1 per upgrade, I think it was more an option you could use "instead of" the attribute +1 per upgrade. Just my interpretation.
But yes, I'm speaking of the system as it exists now. Either the equipment upgrades need a lower bonus token cost (2-4-6-8-10 style) or a greater value (such as ways of improving the SAs or "% chance to" bonuses) in order for advanced eq to be a desirable option.
I'd also think some sort of retroactive bonus token allocation based upon player level would be needed as well if you want higher-level players to use this equipment.
Finally, for higher level players, you need to be able to carry over more than 5 bonus tokens per season. If I can only get to 9 bonus tokens by end of season, I'm "forced" to spend 4 of them (or just switch to normal training once I stockpile 5 bonus tokens) and then spend the first 13 days next season stockpiling 5 more bonus tokens in order to do my 10-token upgrade. The max carryover of bonus tokens should always be equal or less than the cost of an advanced equipment upgrade... either by raising the bonus token carryover max to at least 10, or by increasing the bonus token carryover max based upon player level.
But yes, I'm speaking of the system as it exists now. Either the equipment upgrades need a lower bonus token cost (2-4-6-8-10 style) or a greater value (such as ways of improving the SAs or "% chance to" bonuses) in order for advanced eq to be a desirable option.
I'd also think some sort of retroactive bonus token allocation based upon player level would be needed as well if you want higher-level players to use this equipment.
Finally, for higher level players, you need to be able to carry over more than 5 bonus tokens per season. If I can only get to 9 bonus tokens by end of season, I'm "forced" to spend 4 of them (or just switch to normal training once I stockpile 5 bonus tokens) and then spend the first 13 days next season stockpiling 5 more bonus tokens in order to do my 10-token upgrade. The max carryover of bonus tokens should always be equal or less than the cost of an advanced equipment upgrade... either by raising the bonus token carryover max to at least 10, or by increasing the bonus token carryover max based upon player level.
Last edited Sep 19, 2008 21:29:13
george96
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Simple morphing the equipment!
Instead of having to upgrade all of it, just have the option to morph it onto a piece of existing equipment for 10-20 bonus tokens. You can only have one piece morphed at a time and if you wanna morph a different one you have to remove the previous morph.
You can have all equipment morphed, but only one morph per piece of equipment.
Instead of having to upgrade all of it, just have the option to morph it onto a piece of existing equipment for 10-20 bonus tokens. You can only have one piece morphed at a time and if you wanna morph a different one you have to remove the previous morph.
You can have all equipment morphed, but only one morph per piece of equipment.
SCACE
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Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by SCACE
Now, depending on how many +1's you are getting should affect the $$$ cost, just like it does when you have to buy the equipment initially - though I'm sure you've already thought of that
Indeed.
To me at least, this implied that he is considering multiple +1's, there were other quotes in the discussion where he sounded open to the idea.
Originally posted by SCACE
Now, depending on how many +1's you are getting should affect the $$$ cost, just like it does when you have to buy the equipment initially - though I'm sure you've already thought of that
Indeed.
To me at least, this implied that he is considering multiple +1's, there were other quotes in the discussion where he sounded open to the idea.
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