Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
What would you give Zone if you gave Man it's best SA? On an Island? I think this would just nerf zone, Man is already pretty strong as is.

I believe Opportunist could be better if the cost of Strip Teach was reduced somewhat, at least that's where I'd start.

As far as anti-PA, I'd think Tunnel Vision should have that built into the SA already since on every run play that it fires the dot ignores the RB and goes after the QB normally.

And I'd love for LB's in Zone to react to the Run better, but I agree with what Vipermaw says... I think it might go against the base code of how zone operates. I pretty much lobbied for this not too long ago when passing power made it harder to get interceptions and that was the impression I got.

Man isn’t bad, but that’s mostly because no one runs one on ones anymore. Between running, PA, QBs slanging it where they want to and letting WRs do their thing (Fully guilty of this, once our chem was high enough it was top of the offensive position leaderboards for a few of our guys at their position), etc., it’s just not that great either.

Zone on the other hand is absolute satan spawn, but I’m starting to enjoy watching it on some teams - Especially Myrik’s (still hate playing it. I want to sling the freaking football without Superman flying to get it).

Originally posted by TyDavis315
Tbh these probably aren’t the best example, there’s not really much places for the HB to break out to. Before juke was extremely unrealistic, but I wouldn’t say it’s currently bad. It’s more situational now (as it should) when it was definitely more of a carrying component before.

One thing I will say about current defense is that since pursuit has become much more greatly needed for all positions, there’s a lot more crowding of the ball carrier than one on ones these days. I personally think that it plays a decent factor into its current effectiveness at least.



The point is that Juke just doesn't work (not saying Pursuit isn't the issue but I dunno how many teams are putting 90+ pursuit on their dots), you're lucky if it fires and gets a guy to miss 1 to 3 times a game as compared to how successful late tier Power Through is successful. The majority of those broken tackles are just from having high Elusive. If Juke is only gonna work once or twice a game, then why not make a Power guy?

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
GE did not have the best defense in that era. He had a great one, for sure, but not the best. I personally wrecked him with my Man defense back then (I think I only ever lost to GE once total, if not it wasn't more than a few I lost to him). Outside of my team, we had Dredgar's always good Man teams, BSB's all-star chocked full defense, Osiris' team, Rob's teams, etc etc just to name a few.

A lot of Zone getting better has to do with the addition of new plays and more star players being used than what GE did. Zone does not have an advantage in being able to build better dots via stats, it takes more skills being invested in to make the plays work than in Man and I speak from experience...I have to spend way more physical skills than I ever did in Man to get these plays to work. EotP is great, but zone basically only has 2 SA's and that's it (one of which rarely get's used)... and they are not asking for a proper Int SA for Man, they are asking for Zone's SA to be given to Man. That's a whole different ball game.

That being said, I'm not against new SA's, I've just not seen anything suggested that wasn't copying EotP and giving it to Man D.
I used to run mostly zones, and it had some problems against trip passes, but was killer against the outside running meta of that time. But Bort has added a lot of plays since those days, and SAs too.

The biggest thing though was the passing nerf. Once QBs largely become an after thought, it allowed zones to be more favorable at the upper tiers. I mean look at our Dream vs Lex game today. We had 10 turnovers and that's with a gold Shed Sack QB superstar. Not complaining because the meta is the meta, but it does show how broken passing is both for offense and defense. No way would I fear Southside's man defense the way I did Lexington's, even at Sophmore. QBs have no SAs for their two most important skills, and defenders get lost in coverage and befuddled by PA plays. Screens are dead, the "fix" never did much. And Ty's suggestion about better tactics is spot on.

As for EotP, it's brought up because it's very effective. If I want to make a Deion Sanders type build, I would want to have it on that player while using Man D. Certainly not the first time it's been brought up. A Man int SA is likely the most requested one on these forums. overall, I just want bad SAs to get fixed, and for new ones which add more build diversity to be added, if possible. No one wants zone nerfed, we just want Man D to get better

The Devs have done a great job over the years with SAs, and we have a hard limit on them, so balance is built in.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
The point is that Juke just doesn't work (not saying Pursuit isn't the issue but I dunno how many teams are putting 90+ pursuit on their dots), you're lucky if it fires and gets a guy to miss 1 to 3 times a game as compared to how successful late tier Power Through is successful. The majority of those broken tackles are just from having high Elusive. If Juke is only gonna work once or twice a game, then why not make a Power guy?

Honestly a lot of SAs don’t really work that well in Vet (god damn tuck and run) so i think some of that should be attributed to the decent talent level. Power through is absolute evil and should’ve been dealt with a while ago.

Elusive backs are better than powerbacks though in my opinion (not including SAs) especially after the last boost to balance and footwork. As far as raw potential at this point I’d say it’s the best way to go. Factoring in SAs I still think that powerback isn’t the best, combo is. Yes power through is absolutely filthy, but I think many of us have figured out how to deal with them. Whereas elusive and combo backs make me want to blow me brains out

Originally posted by BoDiddley

Ty's suggestion about better tactics is spot on.



Many think I’m just a HB hater and that’s absolutely true. Not many remember that I really fleshed out Deadman after I did a few stints with Air Raid at the end. I ran pure pass, USC ran defense, few other great guys from back then as well too. Thus the journey of losing in the playoffs or competing for the fourth spot began, the user base back then was freaking ridiculous too as I’m sure you’re aware.

Going from having tough HoF QB battles all those seasons to now watching them chuck it up and pray to god that one of their guys catches it is a bit too modern NFL for me. I’m a giants fan, I see that enough in reality.

Originally posted by BoDiddley

I used to run mostly zones, and it had some problems against trip passes, but was killer against the outside running meta of that time. But Bort has added a lot of plays since those days, and SAs too.

The biggest thing though was the passing nerf. Once QBs largely become an after thought, it allowed zones to be more favorable at the upper tiers. I mean look at our Dream vs Lex game today. We had 10 turnovers and that's with a gold Shed Sack QB superstar. Not complaining because the meta is the meta, but it does show how broken passing is both for offense and defense. No way would I fear Southside's man defense the way I did Lexington's, even at Sophmore. QBs have no SAs for their two most important skills, and defenders get lost in coverage and befuddled by PA plays. Screens are dead, the "fix" never did much. And Ty's suggestion about better tactics is spot on.

As for EotP, it's brought up because it's very effective. If I want to make a Deion Sanders type build, I would want to have it on that player while using Man D. Certainly not the first time it's been brought up. A Man int SA is likely the most requested one on these forums. overall, I just want bad SAs to get fixed, and for new ones which add more build diversity to be added, if possible. No one wants zone nerfed, we just want Man D to get better

The Devs have done a great job over the years with SAs, and we have a hard limit on them, so balance is built in.



My approach to Zone so far hasn't been about getting Ints (I don't get near as many as say DlCurt did with his team), but just blitz the shit out of everyone. That's been my only answer against PA or what some of these teams do.

Based off what CD has said and what I've speculated, the defenses are meant to have different approaches... Man is about shutdown and consistency, while Zone is about TO's. I've guessed it's a game balance thing. EotP is fantastic, but to get it to the level it needs to be you have to abandon so many other skills. When we had Lex's last run with a HoF star MLB getting picks, most of his points were all dumped into Zone Awr, Int, etc and he couldn't excel any anything else but that (he wasn't going to stop the Run like my MLB's used too).

I'm not against new SA's, there just hasn't been anything thrown around other than copying EotP over to Man. I suggested the QB Slide that no one cares about, otherwise I have no idea what to give a QB based on Pass Tech or what have you. I like On The Run, Pump Fake, and Quick Hitter though I wish Quick Hitter had more options to fire but most plays you just throw beyond 6 yards (it could be such a great skill if you had a passing game based on dinking the ball down the field, like a ball control pass game).

And yeah, the devs have done a great job on this game over the years...I'm glad they still take time to work on it with as small of a player base as we have (we are fervent at least arn't we).

Originally posted by TyDavis315
Honestly a lot of SAs don’t really work that well in Vet (god damn tuck and run) so i think some of that should be attributed to the decent talent level. Power through is absolute evil and should’ve been dealt with a while ago.

Elusive backs are better than powerbacks though in my opinion (not including SAs) especially after the last boost to balance and footwork. As far as raw potential at this point I’d say it’s the best way to go. Factoring in SAs I still think that powerback isn’t the best, combo is. Yes power through is absolutely filthy, but I think many of us have figured out how to deal with them. Whereas elusive and combo backs make me want to blow me brains out

I'm trying to build a good Tuck and Run QB on Lex, so we'll see if it needs love. Getting it to fire on Pocket Awr helped a whole lot, though.

I don't agree with you that Elusives are better with Juke not really working atm, but I will say you are right that we as a whole have more experience dealing with Power Backs. Its hard to build defensive dots that can deal with both Elusive and Power, with points being tight its like you have to choose which poison you take.

As much as I complain (I’m a QB lover, I’m sorry HBs jjust don’t do it for me as much) I think the game is in a great spot. As for me though I only have two requests (aside from fix QBs so I can run dual threat air raid ):

I’d like to see more variety in play calling for man blitz, the current ones are a bit meh.

Fix one on one coverage (coverage tech). Personally man is still pretty much supreme imo, but when you get to Vet you are just asking for an ass whooping if that’s the hill you want to die on. By this i mean let’s say your CB cuts in front of a pass, I get not having high enough INT won’t let him catch it (defenders drop wide open passes it’s cool), but if the roll is failed then the receiver gets a free catch instead of a “batted” pass. Plus, in the red zone it doesn’t even matter if they cut the route since once Prime Time fires it’s automatically a TD. I watch my CBs cut at least 8-13 passes a game and it breaks my heart. I personally don’t want a man int SA, it’s moreso the range in which they’ll play the ball is a bit too low - diving and vertical are kinda luxury skills for a solid man defense. Especially since offense is often uber speedy and can still run their offense brilliantly (slowest receiver on my team is at 89 pre CIS and that kinda easily got him to #2 in WR rankings in Vet), we’re in a point recession on defense.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Man has 4 to Zone's 2. I will say that while you can use TDS with Zone it's clearly not intended to do so.

Zone: EotP, Zone Shark

Man: OAI, Cover Expert (cuz you need Cov Tech in Zone, right), Pick Six (Conflicts with EotP), Third Down Stopper (cuz you need Cov Tech in Zone, right...it could be used but has wasted parts obviously)

Originally posted by o The Boss x
Next you'll argue that they aren't [SA options for zone because they aren't] as viable in zone as man.



If you think cover expert is a man SA you clearly have not tried it, it does more harm than good, but that's besides the point. Your aside with monster hit is also irrelevant, it was merely for illustration purposes that there are some defensive SAs that aren't as good in man as they are in zone. But that's not the point.

Right now there are two SAs that apply only to when players are in zone - and one SA that can fire when the defensive player is in man. It's that simple.

The effectiveness, and whether they work with your builds, is subjective, and to some extent (as you have admitted), based on assumption.

You've also assumed that we, The Political Party of Primetimers, are requesting EoTP to fire in man. We aren't, we'd just like to see something. If it's a rebalance to pick six, an addition of an SA that gives an int chance boost in man (hell it could be for both man and zone, point is, man doesn't have anything for int chance), or even something that parallels the morale hit that EoTP grants (even if thru some other medium like a deflection) we'd be ok with it.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar

My approach to Zone so far hasn't been about getting Ints (I don't get near as many as say DlCurt did with his team), but just blitz the shit out of everyone. That's been my only answer against PA or what some of these teams do.

Based off what CD has said and what I've speculated, the defenses are meant to have different approaches... Man is about shutdown and consistency, while Zone is about TO's. I've guessed it's a game balance thing. EotP is fantastic, but to get it to the level it needs to be you have to abandon so many other skills. When we had Lex's last run with a HoF star MLB getting picks, most of his points were all dumped into Zone Awr, Int, etc and he couldn't excel any anything else but that (he wasn't going to stop the Run like my MLB's used too).



This is why I brought up Ge's zone, because he too built them to blitz the crap out of the QB and to hit them hard if they caught the ball. EotP though went nuclear with the passing nerf. Once Devs changed the way passes were rolled, that SA became a bit crazy. And Man builds have to invest some into pass coverage skills, much more so than zone defenders do. Zone defenders can instead build up physical skills, and still cover great. Zone awr is cheap, and Int doesn't have to be all that high to be effective.

But back to zone blitzing, that's the big advantage. You can send pass rushers full-steam ahead, all while having others sit back in coverage and swarm passes. And teams can't run outside on top of that. With Man defense, if you blitz you're opening yourself up to the pass AND often outside runs. Again, not saying to nerf zone, but there's not much balance there in comparison to a Man defense.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar

I'm not against new SA's, there just hasn't been anything thrown around other than copying EotP over to Man. I suggested the QB Slide that no one cares about, otherwise I have no idea what to give a QB based on Pass Tech or what have you. I like On The Run, Pump Fake, and Quick Hitter though I wish Quick Hitter had more options to fire but most plays you just throw beyond 6 yards (it could be such a great skill if you had a passing game based on dinking the ball down the field, like a ball control pass game).

And yeah, the devs have done a great job on this game over the years...I'm glad they still take time to work on it with as small of a player base as we have (we are fervent at least arn't we).


I've probably made more Running QBs than anyone, but don't see any value in a QB slide SA. QBs rather fumble on actual runs if you set them to slippery or elusive. Quick hitter is to be blunt, garbage. It should proc off Pass Accuracy, and not be limited to short passes. Pushing accuracy to 70, 80, 90 is a lot of SP, so actually make it worth it. it's pointless if a QB will still get picked often on what should have been easy passes(Had a 90/90 S* QB some seasons ago, and saw it happen). Hail Mary is another...why is it not a straight buff to passes? Tamp down the stats it adds along with fire rate, and let it work on all deep passes. Pass Power is not cheap. Pass Tech...make is a counter to things like OAI/EotP. That way you don't nerf defense, but also make offense that invest the skills actually be able to compete. Pump Fake is ok, but weak. On the Run is good, that and Shed Sack are about the only QB SAs that work fine. Quick Read is mixed for some

My thing is that both Pass Tech and Pass accuracy are expensive skills. Imagine RBs not having powerthrough or juke, DLinemen without Spin or TV, or DBs wihtout OAI or EOTP. It's why most QBs in GLB suck, and only 20% are competent. GLB2 is a game built around getting the most of SAs.

Originally posted by o The Boss x
If you think cover expert is a man SA you clearly have not tried it, it does more harm than good,

If what o The Boss x is saying is true then shouldn't we fix Cover Expert? It you can't use it for Man defense it's basically useless. There are no zone builds that currently involve Coverage Tech. As of right now from what i'm hearing it currently fits neither defense.

This would be a good way to fix a current Signature Ability and potentially add more play styles to the game in addition to reviving a mechanic that other wise would be useless.......right?

It also wouldn't take up a spot of a potentially new SA.

My SS with cover expert always overran the receiver/have a hard time turning when the ball is thrown... luckily i respected out of it but its why we stopped putting them on guys as we found out more and more that it messed their movements up. Im not sure how you would fix it though.

Oh and with the adding of play action it hurts even more when it fires because it basically gives them a speed boost to move away from their covered man as they bite for the fake.. youd think a "cover expert" wouldnt fall so much but they still do and play action is killer against man without help over the top

Originally posted by 4chanCitizen
If what o The Boss x is saying is true then shouldn't we fix Cover Expert? It you can't use it for Man defense it's basically useless. There are no zone builds that currently involve Coverage Tech. As of right now from what i'm hearing it currently fits neither defense.

This would be a good way to fix a current Signature Ability and potentially add more play styles to the game in addition to reviving a mechanic that other wise would be useless.......right?

It also wouldn't take up a spot of a potentially new SA.





You bring up the key point. Zone players don't need cov tech(less points to use) AND have the best SA. Zone Awareness is also really cheap and procs EotP like crazy.

All people are asking for is another useful SA for Man D. Cover Expert if I remember was in reaction to people whining about receivers blowing by defenders. I use it, it works for me but like with Quick Read not everyone is happy with the results. My only worry would be that passing already sucks for the most part, and if Devs would fix passing SAs at the same time. Because that's a must or things just get worse..

Considering zone hasn't been touched in like 3 or 4 years, I'm thinking the balance between zone and man is probably about fine?

It just happens that the current best teams with the best players decided to run zone this go through instead of man...which seemed dominant when they were running it at the time. Now that they're running zone, it feels overbearing instead of man.

Originally posted by o The Boss x


If you think cover expert is a man SA you clearly have not tried it, it does more harm than good, but that's besides the point. Your aside with monster hit is also irrelevant, it was merely for illustration purposes that there are some defensive SAs that aren't as good in man as they are in zone. But that's not the point.

Right now there are two SAs that apply only to when players are in zone - and one SA that can fire when the defensive player is in man. It's that simple.

The effectiveness, and whether they work with your builds, is subjective, and to some extent (as you have admitted), based on assumption.

You've also assumed that we, The Political Party of Primetimers, are requesting EoTP to fire in man. We aren't, we'd just like to see something. If it's a rebalance to pick six, an addition of an SA that gives an int chance boost in man (hell it could be for both man and zone, point is, man doesn't have anything for int chance), or even something that parallels the morale hit that EoTP grants (even if thru some other medium like a deflection) we'd be ok with it.

Zone does not use Cover Technique at all (it does not register pass defense attempts ever), so most of those skills I listed for all intents and purposes are Man SA. If one isn't not worth using, then by all means, y'all should be pushing for a fix and I'll gladly chime in. It's not like when I do these Changelogs that the suggestions aren't based out of what I see everyone post in the forums.

I've only made assumptions based on what you've argued with me... you've only ever brought up gaining EotP for Man. I mentioned Pick 6 might need some love a few pages ago and y'all went right back to the EotP argument. Pick 6 could be a good skill, or could be adjusted to be a better skill, but no one has tried it enough to get data on it to make the right argument for a buff as far as I know. Maybe it needs a morale hit to the other team like you suggested, or maybe the cost of Coverage Tech needs adjusted like I suggested or some sort of combo of both ideas, I dunno. Why don't guys start using it and let's find out. CD obviously cares about this game and seems more than willing to work with us (the community) if we present a reasonable argument.

Originally posted by Corndog
Considering zone hasn't been touched in like 3 or 4 years, I'm thinking the balance between zone and man is probably about fine?

It just happens that the current best teams with the best players decided to run zone this go through instead of man...which seemed dominant when they were running it at the time. Now that they're running zone, it feels overbearing instead of man.

I think this is the Truth.