Warrior General Games

I'll take the lack of a responses presumptively to mean that you all agree that a LB in hook coverage lined up inside the TE should not be able to pick off a corner route by the TE. Idk how you solve that problem.

With that said, idc what is done, I'm just an advocate for any change because it keeps the game fresh and how passing is now vs. zone is borked. QBs being penalized for having higher pass power is fundamentally flawed. I'd like to see a pass setting to loft, bullet, throw open, etc. It would be cool to see a QB actually be able to lead a WR with a Mike Vick snowcone ball that sails high in the air and gives the WR time to create even more separation and run under it. Note: this change would affect both man and zone, and who knows which would actually be benefitted more.

Also sidenote because I can't help but address: what is up with you guys addressing pass tech? The skill description literally has nothing to do with how it is being described here. I remember conversations way back in the day arguing that a higher pass tech actually could make the pass easier to intercept because it is thrown with more touch. Pass accuracy is the skill that puts the ball "into the window," no?

Originally posted by o The Boss x
I'll take the lack of a responses presumptively to mean that you all agree that a LB in hook coverage lined up inside the TE should not be able to pick off a corner route by the TE. Idk how you solve that problem.

With that said, idc what is done, I'm just an advocate for any change because it keeps the game fresh and how passing is now vs. zone is borked. QBs being penalized for having higher pass power is fundamentally flawed. I'd like to see a pass setting to loft, bullet, throw open, etc. It would be cool to see a QB actually be able to lead a WR with a Mike Vick snowcone ball that sails high in the air and gives the WR time to create even more separation and run under it. Note: this change would affect both man and zone, and who knows which would actually be benefitted more.

Also sidenote because I can't help but address: what is up with you guys addressing pass tech? The skill description literally has nothing to do with how it is being described here. I remember conversations way back in the day arguing that a higher pass tech actually could make the pass easier to intercept because it is thrown with more touch. Pass accuracy is the skill that puts the ball "into the window," no?

Unfortunately it's an effect of how QBs throw to receivers, my guess is that if they aimed to hit the receiver in stride, it was too hard to balance accuracy so that he wouldn't just overthrow by a tick and the receiver would have no way to adjust. So they target a bit behind the optimal point so that if they miss forward they hit the guy in stride if he's wide open.


Probably something they did just to make things work and move on, but it has a huge impact on constantly throwing behind guys and forcing the play backward. That being said, it's what we have, and even if it wasn't then the QB would still blindly throw right past a guy who was lined up slightly to the right of the LB's position here.


This should not be a pass the LB can stop, but if the QB was dumb enough to bullet it as hard as he could then yeah it is one he can stop... which is exactly what QBs do all the time in this game.



So since they bullet every pass, they need to consider that anyone between them and the receiver can have a chance at it, and people who are not engaged with a blocker should cause him to hesitate to try and throw it 'past' them. It'd be better just to have him not throw them and wait for real openings, that would cause QBs to hold the ball longer against zone and give pass rush a chance to get there like it has with man to man.


I mean, myrick was arguing that since the pass would be completed about 60% of the time here, that the trade off of throwing an INT 40% of the time was worth it... somehow... so if it's a trade off, then why not just get rid of both and not have him throw those?


I mean, it's all an even tradeoff right?




Anyhow, as for the tech stuff, I'm not so sure myself.

You guys do know the main covet of zone coverage teams is that defenders are watching the QB instead of the receiver right? even in the NFL there have been historically overwhelming zone teams. You just don’t see “as many” picks playing man because:
a) everyone’s playing a receiver, man is technically geared towards PDs.
b) most of us man guys don’t build players to intercept, you allow too many completions.

Zone doesn’t need to be nerfed honestly, but I will say that you need a lot more speed to beat it. I ran a dink and dunk playbook against Gridiron and they fucked me. If anything, I’d say the passes knocked loose might need to be nerfed. Regardless, it keeps it interesting and it keeps offenses working in their builds.

On those plays I’d say it’s your QB. Non-star QBs in this game are pretty bad already since you have to specialize based on what your scheme is, so dedicating 70+ in just awareness might not have been the best move. Especially if you have Quick Read (and even worse if it’s gold) considering the QB is automatically going to go with the open guy and not properly assess what’s around him. Useful against man, less useful against zone.

Also have any of you used a rocket arm against zone? I’m seeing a lot of backwards thoughts here, rocket arms (at least star ones) will obliterate zone coverages with the right scheme and unit (another thing I learned from matchups with GE and some of the older zone teams).

Originally posted by TyDavis315
You guys do know the main covet of zone coverage teams is that defenders are watching the QB instead of the receiver right? even in the NFL there have been historically overwhelming zone teams. You just don’t see “as many” picks playing man because:
a) everyone’s playing a receiver, man is technically geared towards PDs.
b) most of us man guys don’t build players to intercept, you allow too many completions.

Zone doesn’t need to be nerfed honestly, but I will say that you need a lot more speed to beat it. I ran a dink and dunk playbook against Gridiron and they fucked me. If anything, I’d say the passes knocked loose might need to be nerfed. Regardless, it keeps it interesting and it keeps offenses working in their builds.

On those plays I’d say it’s your QB. Non-star QBs in this game are pretty bad already since you have to specialize based on what your scheme is, so dedicating 70+ in just awareness might not have been the best move. Especially if you have Quick Read (and even worse if it’s gold) considering the QB is automatically going to go with the open guy and not properly assess what’s around him. Useful against man, less useful against zone.

Also have any of you used a rocket arm against zone? I’m seeing a lot of backwards thoughts here, rocket arms (at least star ones) will obliterate zone coverages with the right scheme and unit (another thing I learned from matchups with GE and some of the older zone teams).



rocket arm could work primarily due to zone awareness checks may not fire in time mixed with the other skills

Originally posted by TyDavis315
You guys do know the main covet of zone coverage teams is that defenders are watching the QB instead of the receiver right? even in the NFL there have been historically overwhelming zone teams. You just don’t see “as many” picks playing man because:
a) everyone’s playing a receiver, man is technically geared towards PDs.
b) most of us man guys don’t build players to intercept, you allow too many completions.

Zone doesn’t need to be nerfed honestly, but I will say that you need a lot more speed to beat it. I ran a dink and dunk playbook against Gridiron and they fucked me. If anything, I’d say the passes knocked loose might need to be nerfed. Regardless, it keeps it interesting and it keeps offenses working in their builds.

On those plays I’d say it’s your QB. Non-star QBs in this game are pretty bad already since you have to specialize based on what your scheme is, so dedicating 70+ in just awareness might not have been the best move. Especially if you have Quick Read (and even worse if it’s gold) considering the QB is automatically going to go with the open guy and not properly assess what’s around him. Useful against man, less useful against zone.

Also have any of you used a rocket arm against zone? I’m seeing a lot of backwards thoughts here, rocket arms (at least star ones) will obliterate zone coverages with the right scheme and unit (another thing I learned from matchups with GE and some of the older zone teams).



He'd thrown 1 INT in league games up til that point, because I designed him to do one thing: protect the ball. You can't be too overzealous building a non-star so I tried to make him do that one thing well, and against man to man he is pretty good at it. He buys time and makes the smart play with high awareness. He cannot make a smart play against zone because QBs don't read zone properly for how they function in this game, so they throw it right at people, even without pressure on them. You specifically have to playcall to avoid this because the QB cannot read underneath zones properly.

Originally posted by Raid
And Myrick, I’m not saying you shouldn’t have been ABLE to intercept that ball, obviously, even if I had high tech.

My point is that ball should not have been thrown, at all. If your justification is that the ball was fine, why are you picking on 70 tech then when your 55 with a boost vert guy got high enough in the air to have the ball hit him in the chest?

That super high pass was super hard for you to get to, with your...if 70 is “middling” as you put it, man 55 must mean a skill is downright bad right?

So it’s a good decision to throw it over any players head there, despite the fact a guy with downright bad vertical absolutely crushed the pass and had it hit him in the chest?


That’s a great time to pass the ball.



That’s all I’m saying, in real life the QB could pass the ball here, by lofting it, or throwing a bit toward the open field, but they can’t. You keep saying he lofted it, but never once has that been an option for QBs in this game and it’s not been on the changelog. CD literally has told us in the past that QBs always throw it as hard as they can and the arc is purely determined by strength of throw.



Also, throwing the ball to a covered wide receiver because pressure is coming, is a heck of a lot different than trying to throw it past a guy without any forced pressure.

First of all, if the receiver is in the area of the defender, it's a lot less risky as two people are fighting over the ball instead of one guy getting a free chance at it as it goes by him.

Second of all, QBs don't tend to do that at all in man to man coverage unless they are forced, no pressure is being applied here to cause an error in judgment like that. It's the QB literally just thinking he's doing the right thing here even with good awareness and time to watch it develop without pressure.

Let's get something strait, this isn't real football, we are using game logic here so using real world comparison's is futile.

I disagree that QB's don't force throw against Man... we used to make jokes about how QB's completed passes vs double or triple covered receivers in Man.

And a jumping LB is hit in the chest? Really? If we are gonna argue the visual here, then I'd say if the LB had to jump that's not the case. As far as QB's always trying to throw it has hard as they can, they can also fail their power throws I'd wager.

But I digress, I call 55 vertical great and 70 tech poor based off of comparisons to standard builds over the years (at least in my personal experience and how guys who pioneered builds taught me, like Detroit Leos for example). Most good QB's in this game are pumping tech to at least 80 and I've not seen defenders put lots of points into vertical because points are scarce and you need so much elsewhere when building defense. Raid, passing tech is needed to make balls catch-able as per its description. I surmise that it also affects the traffic radius of the throw... so yeah 70 isn't good, especially when you look at the match-up. I think its great you went against the grain and have success with that dot, but you discount the S*Cov LB who is built to get Ints within the game logic.

What's surprising to me is that you go into this game knowing passing will be difficult, yet you still tried it expecting a different result and then complain about it here. That comes off as asinine to me. I mean, its not like GE didn't do all this to teams a long time ago before Rob, Dredgar, or myself tried to make Zone work.

The only thing I do for CPU to Vet is I have a player there, no decision making on that team.



Again, who the fuck cares what Tech is when the QB makes horrible decisions?

And, Again, throwing it to two guys battling is an untold multitude safer than throwing it past one guy is is there waiting and looking at you.

And, Again, I said they tend not to do that unless pressured, when they feel the heat they will force it against multiple people. But it is STILL safer to throw into triple coverage than to throw past 1 guy who is sitting there waiting while looking at you, and QBs against zone make these throws completely unpressured.


There is no one to get in the way of the guy you throw over the head of, and QBs literally can't stop themselves from throwing right at people in zone, if the QB 'accidentally' targeted defenders in man to man, it'd have about the same effect. You're getting a free pass based upon a broke mechanic.

I mean in the Chamrs game today, our QB threw 14 times (which the most I'd ever seen before on this playbook combo was 6, but whatever RNG is a bastard, 3 of those were screens too so it's really more like 11 downfield passes) and he managed to throw it directly at defenders 3 times despite our team having high morale every single time, again because he thought he was making the best decision he could, and no matter how much more awareness you pump they still do this.






I mean you talk about compared to meta, how much more is 70 awareness than the meta? And Faze threw at least 2 INTs directly at guys and 4 on the day overall with 'questionable' calls on the others.


Does not sound like the QB who probably has the most pass awareness in the league by a large margin. The guy with the most awareness in the league making 4 unforced errors that weren't based upon him having bad throws, just actually making bad decisions.


So what do I have to do to make him make good decisions then? If all this is fair, what should I put into my build to counter this? Just rocket it even lower and hope the badass with 109 INT is sleeping on the job? QBs are actively making terrible decisions against zone, full stop.

My take is don’t small TE Flag against Cover 2 Sink, guys are wide open but the LBs are in perfect position waiting in the lanes.

Also, it's not very helpful to say

"Just run it"

As a way to combat zone when passing. If it were that easy to counter it, do you think you'd be top of the ladder? I mean, literally. If this shit was so insanely easy to counter as to just run it, never fails, always win, then how the fuck are you having success with it?



I just can't stand how you are arguing as though it's so weak and pathetic while holding the fucking top spot in the game right now using it.

I just threw for 390 against a pretty decent zone attack and not once did I have the same problems you’re mentioning. Looking at your QB Raid, he’s historically been bad. Idk if you’re confusing TDs for competency, but you aren’t paying attention to his overall ratio. He’s been throwing picks since his first season, I don’t get why you would expect him to play at an elite level against elite teams.

You should probably talk to whoever runs the offense, this seems like something you guys should be discussing instead of airing out your problems in the bugs section where they’re clearly isn’t any bugs.

Trust me when I say you would rather face Myrik using zone than man. If he was using man your QB would still throw 3-5 picks and then cough up about 4-7 fumbles. You just have to give credit where credit is due man, not that hard

Originally posted by TyDavis315
I just threw for 390 against a pretty decent zone attack and not once did I have the same problems you’re mentioning. Looking at your QB Raid, he’s historically been bad. Idk if you’re confusing TDs for competency, but you aren’t paying attention to his overall ratio. He’s been throwing picks since his first season, I don’t get why you would expect him to play at an elite level against elite teams.

You should probably talk to whoever runs the offense, this seems like something you guys should be discussing instead of airing out your problems in the bugs section where they’re clearly isn’t any bugs.

Trust me when I say you would rather face Myrik using zone than man. If he was using man your QB would still throw 3-5 picks and then cough up about 4-7 fumbles. You just have to give credit where credit is due man, not that hard

Sophmore... K. Went over this, this isn't too much a problem until teams get decent, Play them again in Pro/Vet and try to throw that much.

Also, the teams that "decent zone attack" has actually beaten: 2 CPUs, 1 inactive with a record of 1-13-1, 2 other teams with records of 3-12 and 4-11... so...


And as for Faze,

He spent his first 3 seasons leveling up on a CPU team, he was supposed to be fitted into another team but that team folded. So he sat around unused for a while. Then NMCTV offered him when they decided to accept players, but before they got a full human roster. So he spent his 4th season with all CPU o-line and WRs... but you'll notice he had a good uptick when humans were doing the playcalling even then. His receivers these last 2 seasons have been unboosted for the most part, though excellent builds now instead of CPUs, I've been lucky to have been a part of the NMCTV project and it's been a blast.


And his rating has been fine these past 3 seasons.

Have you even read anything I'm posting? You think it's alright for a team that chooses to pass to give at least 3 free shots to the other team without them forcing those chances with pressure?

I mean, even the guy who is doing best at QB in the league right now threw 3 against lexington when they played.

And by the way, the credit part is kinda true, this does seem like me just bashing Myrick, and it's not. He's the best builder in the game, probably best coach too. But he and I seem to disagree on this point.

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/232063

This was my normal QB for Genesis. I think we have different viewpoint on “fine”. Once again, I think you should probably be coordinating with the person running offense. If the team/playcalling isn’t properly schemed for your QB you’ll end up with massive amounts of picks (that or if your receivers aren’t equipped to beat better defenses). I’ve never had a real problem with zone other than the passes knocked loose. On average a bad day would be 2-3 picks.

Also the guys who have been here longer just know what to expect. We get what you’re saying, but it’s just not accurate.

Originally posted by TyDavis315
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/232063

This was my normal QB for Genesis. I think we have different viewpoint on “fine”. Once again, I think you should probably be coordinating with the person running offense. If the team/playcalling isn’t properly schemed for your QB you’ll end up with massive amounts of picks (that or if your receivers aren’t equipped to beat better defenses). I’ve never had a real problem with zone other than the passes knocked loose. On average a bad day would be 2-3 picks.

Also the guys who have been here longer just know what to expect. We get what you’re saying, but it’s just not accurate.

Holy shit, 1 season with significantly higher rating than the 3 seasons I called fine! Oh my god, what a beast! I'm sure we aren't supposed to look at every single other season where you have under those numbers or at them.


Are you talking about INTs specifically, because frankly if you've not paid attention, between then and now the entire INT mechanics were changed and the rate has dramatically increased.

Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
From my view zone is still weaker than man, maybe substantially weaker. Any nerf would kill it all together along with young teams using it like Alaska.

Agreed. Any nerf to zone would probably make me reset. I was on the fence whether or not to go man or zone on this newest team but I wanted to give zone one last shot with a little more superstar power. Sure there are more opportunities for turnovers but there are also huge holes that the offense can exploit in the passing game. Watching opposing receivers catch wide open passes is frustrating and only offset by the occasional turnovers and knocked loose hits that the defense can create. I still think man is better overall and more consistent.