Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Xars
I swear, talking to you is like talking to a rock.


GLB2Scout - Play Analyzer - Vet - Current Season - Offense - 3WR TRIPS - HB Pitch Weak

Against Man: 5.31 YPA with a 16.8% TFL

Against Zone: 9.02 YPA with a 7.79% TFL

LogZilla (Gimli) is at 7.2YPA for this play, versus 6.2 YPA for everyone else. (Man & Zone)



GLB2Scout - Play Analyzer - Vet - Current Season - Offense - $WR TRIPS - HB Sweep Weak

Against Man: 7.14 YPA with a 21.57% TFL

Against Zone: 7.8 YPA with a 22.5% TFL

LogZilla (Gimli) is at 8.8 YPA for this play, versus 6.8 YPA for everyone else. (Man & Zone)


Keep deluding yourself.

The only reason Zone has "worked" these past seasons is because people continue to use the wrong formations and run Outside to the Strong side.

It's called Data.

You've been warned. (over and over and over again)

Run my last season's numbers of Trips against my KYM team that won Vet, please (only 2 seasons ago so Scout should still have it I assume). I'm curious to see how well I handled those.

I know the base stats vs Trips... I gave up 1.3 ypc on 190 attempts, and teams completed only 40% of their passes on 118 attempts.

Originally posted by Cybertron
As you should try to run outside weak vs an all zone team. However, I have been here much longer than most of you and I have built all zone teams that shut down running teams. Stopping the run is the least of my concern.

Now that being said....I am implementing a hybrid defense this run with some man sprinkled in vs off balanced offenses.

Well goodluck enjoy your playoffs

Originally posted by ThePh33P
Well goodluck enjoy your playoffs

We aren't making the playoffs this season...lol. Sun League is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Xars

The only reason Zone has "worked" these past seasons is because people continue to use the wrong formations and run Outside to the Strong side.

It's called Data.


It's like everyone has missed this.

Now watch...

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Run my last season's numbers of Trips against my KYM team that won Vet, please (only 2 seasons ago so Scout should still have it I assume). I'm curious to see how well I handled those.

I know the base stats vs Trips... I gave up 1.3 ypc on 190 attempts, and teams completed only 40% of their passes on 118 attempts.

You are correct on the overall.

Last season, Kentucky's overall 3WR TRIPS Defensive numbers are: 53 Outside Rushing plays for a 2.5 YPA against.

And when you go through all of your plays, here are your results for 3WR TRIPS HB Pitch Weak:

15 Rushes for 7.8 YPA against.

Hey Cybertron: Do I need to repeat that?

What did I say in the above post?

Originally posted by Xars


The only reason Zone has "worked" these past seasons is because people continue to use the wrong formations and run Outside to the Strong side.


Myrik, congrats on your team's run.

You should have faced 15 HP Pitch Weak PER GAME. Instead, that's your entire SEASON numbers.

People don't know how to build an Outside Run playbook against Zone. Here it is:

Big I HB Sweep Left 5 blue dots
Big I Off Tackle Left 1 blue dot

3WR TRIPS HB Pitch Weak 5 blue dots
3WR TRIPS HB Off Tackle Weak 1 blue dot

4WR TRIPS HB Sweep Weak 5 blue dots
4WR TRIPS HB Off Tackle Weak 1 blue dot

Now combine that with Inside Runs of Dive/Slams to the Strong side for those same 3 formations.

You want to shoot the Weakside OT gap and try to break up the Outside Run? Well your LBs are out of position to the Dives and Slams. And if you're facing a Power HB that breaks the LB tackle, you won't get the TFL.

Face the above Outside runs 30 times a game along with 30 Inside Dives & Slams against 30 teams and you won't win 29 running Zone. Even Kentucky's Zone D and builds. I'm not saying you won't win any because builds, Offense, turnovers, etc. are all factors but I don't see how you win 20+.

But since 28, or even 30, opponents don't seem to know how to do this, Kentucky built a defense that stopped what they were doing. They didn't adjust and switch up their tactics.

That's called winning, so congrats Myrik. (Truly)

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King.

Doesn't solve the Zone problem though against those formations.

And don't get me started on the bullshit Pass Defense of having one weakside CB trying to cover 2-3 receivers in a "Zone" with the FS still trying to slide over and how the QB never seems to take advantage of it. A college QB would blow that shit up, but the sim doesn't enough. Instead you get jumping LB picks, when you should be completing 80% of your passes and setting records.

Can you build a Zone CB or two? With a LB or two? Possibly. And then run a big Hybrid D. Will it work? Maybe. Maybe that's what DL is doing with BSB. I don't really know.

But building a Zone D when there are 3 overloaded formations in the game is pretty dumb.

Originally posted by Xars

Last season, Kentucky's overall 3WR TRIPS Defensive numbers are: 53 Outside Rushing plays for a 2.5 YPA against.

And when you go through all of your plays, here are your results for 3WR TRIPS HB Pitch Weak:

15 Rushes for 7.8 YPA against.

If by last Season then you're talking about Rookie, then of course it's not great... the players can't run even half the Zone plays effectively and I wouldn't expect to have done well. I generally don't even try in Rookie and only put in some effort with Soph for that reason if I'm running Zone.

But if this was Vet, I find that interesting.

Originally posted by Xars

You should have faced 15 HP Pitch Weak PER GAME. Instead, that's your entire SEASON numbers....



While most Zone before me went heavy into pass defense builds my previous KYM team was built to deal with Power HB's considering that was the majority I faced in the run. I also generally scheme against what I'm facing, so I would have liked to seen if I could have picked plays to handle your scheme (providing I had enough foresite to what you were planning and you didn't suddenly change tactics for a "gotcha" plan). This also would have given me insight on what plays to suggest to mitigate the weakness if I discovered my builds were not effective in making the difference.

Anyways, I like watching your HB version of Garbage Truck...I considered making a similar build last run but went full Elusive instead, I just had built years of the fast power guys and it was time to do something different.

GLB2Scout Global Data this Season (S54) for 3WR TRIPS HB Pitch Weak

Rookie: 4.09 YPA
Man: 2.92
Zone: 8.39

Soph: 4.43 YPA
Man: 3.69
Zone: 6.39

Journeyman: 4.92 YPA
Man: 5.06 (34 plays)
Zone: 3.33 (3 plays)

Pro: 7.62 YPA
Man: 5.87
Zone: 12.16

Vet: 6.38 YPA
Man: 5.31
Zone: 8.97

There's the data.

Originally posted by Xars
GLB2Scout Global Data this Season (S54) for 3WR TRIPS HB Pitch Weak

Rookie: 4.09 YPA
Man: 2.92
Zone: 8.39

Soph: 4.43 YPA
Man: 3.69
Zone: 6.39

Journeyman: 4.92 YPA
Man: 5.06 (34 plays)
Zone: 3.33 (3 plays)

Pro: 7.62 YPA
Man: 5.87
Zone: 12.16

Vet: 6.38 YPA
Man: 5.31
Zone: 8.97

There's the data.

I'm not arguing your data is wrong at all, I'm just saying my version of Zone was built vastly differently from the norm you are seeing and I could handle Power backs (even yours) which leads me to wonder how I would have handled your pass game... I think I could've contained your pass offense enough after stopping the HB to make the game to be between your defense and my offense. I wish I could've stayed in Vet long enough to at least try but I'll never know since you'll be on your next run by the time I get back to Vet. It would have been worth it to play you couple times in the season to find out if zone needs new plays or if I need to change my builds more than I currently have this run.

Zone plays are always welcomed. Some anti trips zone plays would be nice.

I don't think you guys are arguing about the same thing. From a conceptual and data standpoint, it's fairly obvious that zone is disadvantaged against overload run sets. Before builds are taken into account, I don't even think GE would contest this, so linking data on the success of overload runs against trips is pretty neat, but redundant. Like Irish said, it's nothing new and we agree on this. The real debate is whether the flexibility of zone CB builds can make up for being a man down through sheer force. Being a man up is cancelled out if a WR cannot hold his block and/or if the HB cannot shake a tackle. Thus, I think while zone is initially weak to overload, I do not think it is necessarily a fatal flaw. I know GE has already shown his run defense is effective even when I overload a zone, and my team even has... abnormally good run blocking.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
I'm not arguing your data is wrong at all, I'm just saying my version of Zone was built vastly differently from the norm you are seeing and I could handle Power backs (even yours) which leads me to wonder how I would have handled your pass game... I think I could've contained your pass offense enough after stopping the HB to make the game to be between your defense and my offense. I wish I could've stayed in Vet long enough to at least try but I'll never know since you'll be on your next run by the time I get back to Vet. It would have been worth it to play you couple times in the season to find out if zone needs new plays or if I need to change my builds more than I currently have this run.

Xars will be in Vet a couple of seasons with us.

Originally posted by Kvothe27
I don't think you guys are arguing about the same thing. From a conceptual and data standpoint, it's fairly obvious that zone is disadvantaged against overload run sets. Before builds are taken into account, I don't even think GE would contest this, so linking data on the success of overload runs against trips is pretty neat, but redundant. Like Irish said, it's nothing new and we agree on this. The real debate is whether the flexibility of zone CB builds can make up for being a man down through sheer force. Being a man up is cancelled out if a WR cannot hold his block and/or if the HB cannot shake a tackle. Thus, I think while zone is initially weak to overload, I do not think it is necessarily a fatal flaw. I know GE has already shown his run defense is effective even when I overload a zone, and my team even has... abnormally good run blocking.

This is exactly what I was trying to say...lol

BSB defensive players are all hybrid players (play both man and zone). I did not maximize the hybrid roster to have zone and man specific players.

I also have not gameplanned at all. So there is also that.

Hybrid defenses are very flexible and in the hands of those that still gameplan, could be really nasty.

Originally posted by Detroit Leos
BSB defensive players are all hybrid players (play both man and zone).

While they may play both, do they all have both Man/Zone Awareness?

Are they built as hybrids or built one way and then play both?

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
I'm not arguing your data is wrong at all, I'm just saying my version of Zone was built vastly differently from the norm you are seeing and I could handle Power backs (even yours) which leads me to wonder how I would have handled your pass game... I think I could've contained your pass offense enough after stopping the HB to make the game to be between your defense and my offense. I wish I could've stayed in Vet long enough to at least try but I'll never know since you'll be on your next run by the time I get back to Vet. It would have been worth it to play you couple times in the season to find out if zone needs new plays or if I need to change my builds more than I currently have this run.

If you were really doing things differently, then of course the outcomes could be different. And there is RNG and turnovers and all kinds of other things, so nothing is a guarantee.

My WRs and TEs are net positive on Pancakes-Reverse Pancakes this season. You need some blocking on the edge, particularly if you're not rushing with a max speed back (power or elusive).

I looked at your roster as in depth as I could before Hawaii's last game with you in S52. The 3-4 Cover Tiger spam with the loop your RO was taking was ripe to be taken advantage with Weakside OffTackle runs from 3WR TRIPS.