Warrior General Games

Originally posted by BoDiddley

The problem is largely a lack of good passing plays.

Besides Verticals, we don't have enough plays that attack the seams of Cover 3. You beat C3 by going 4 vertical in the seams. Or by flooding the short zones on a 5 man blitz (versus the standard 4 man rush). 3-4 Cover 3 Tiger has a clear weak spot - the 3 short zones. Yet, because Short Passing still isn't a thing in GLB2, you don't pay a price for only covering 3 of the 5 zones.

Here's Steve Spagnola breaking it all down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdN7T_OzAKw

"The weakness in Cover 3 is the Flat." So why doesn't GLB2 Passing plays that attack the Flats work against C3 zone?

This is why OCs created "Stick" plays - particularly, Y-Stick. The Y-Stick read is TE-Flat first. The WR runs a Go to the sideline, forcing the CB to turn his hips, which opens up the Flat for the TE to start at the Curl and slide to the Flat. Yes, in the NFL you beat Zone by throwing to the TE. In GLB2, you prey on S* TEs by using Zone.

The other issue is the Tiger blitz. On a Tiger blitz by a LB, the HB/FB would clearly see the pre-snap movement and target that defender first. Pass Pro would instantly slide to that side.

The reason Tiger blitzes from the Secondary work (in the NFL) is that the HB/FB is scanning the LBs for the blitz and not the Safeties (unless they are lined up as LBs).

Originally posted by Xars
Data:

Here's the data against Passing plays:

Cover 3 Tiger: Plays 327 - Comp 47.7% - Int 4.9% - Sack 12.8% - YPA of 5.4 - YPC 11.4 - Net YPA 2.34
Under 2 Sam Fire: Plays 299 - Comp 53.8% - Int 2.7% - Sack 11.7% - YPA of 5.8 - YPC 10.8 - Net YPA 3.78
5-2 Over Mike Edge: Plays 320 - 49.4% - Int 0.9% - Sack 15.0% - YPA of 5.5 - YPC of 11.2 - Net YPA 4.08



Here's Myrik's Kentucky Team through 31 games (29 plus 2 playoffs):

Cover 3 Tiger: Plays 128 - Comp 37.5% - Int 4.9% - Sack 21.9% - YPA of 3.5 - YPC 9.4 - Net YPA (1.88) - yep, negative.
All Plays: Plays 1482 - Comp 42% - Int 8.6% - Sack 21.90% - YPA of 3.5 - YPC 10.2 - Net YPA (.03) - yep, negative.

So is the argument now that Myrik didn't build his team to run C3 or C3 Tiger optimally?

Anyway, let's all congratulate Myrik for breaking the game.

Now, what exactly is broken and how should it be fixed?

I think there are two specific issues:

1. The Tiger Blitz from a LB isn't causing an instant pickup by the back - or a slide protection OT switching off the DE.

2. Flat routes aren't high enough completion% against C3. 3WR TRIPS WR Posts is one of the few good plays (from 3WR TRIPS) because WR3 runs a 7yd Flat against the RI having to cover him. And a fast WR1 can beat the CB backpedaling on the deep Go. But not enough other plays have Flat success against C3.

3. Rushing plays against most C3 zone plays aren't generating enough yardage. If you only have 8 men total between Level 1 and Level 2, then rushing yardage can't be sub-4 YPC. There are 9 blockers plus the ball carrier. Basic math. It's why NFL teams are always trying to drop the SS down so they can stop the running game.

But first, fix the Salary problem so we can then deal with on the field problems.

I'm not sure what your arguing for at this point. Are you really trying to argue that a play is OP when a coach that who many would consider to be the best Zone coach in the game uses is 128 times in a season? And one of the other major contenders for that title in Ghanima uses it never?

It's also interesting. Telling maybe even that you keep not bringing up the run statistics for the play. Almost like its the reason the play is strong but not busted and perhaps the reason these good zone coaches don't just spam it into oblivion. Like perhaps there is a glaring weakness to the play that you keep ignoring for some totally non malicious reason.

Originally posted by ellix
I'm not sure what your arguing for at this point.

Originally posted by Xars


But first, fix the Salary problem so we can then deal with on the field problems.

Are you against the Salary change?

At the moment, it's the only issue I've put on the table.

I've got 5 most recent posts in the Suggestion forum: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum/forum/13335

Are any of them nerf Zone?

Originally posted by ellix

It's also interesting. Telling maybe even that you keep not bringing up the run statistics for the play. Almost like its the reason the play is strong but not busted and perhaps the reason these good zone coaches don't just spam it into oblivion. Like perhaps there is a glaring weakness to the play that you keep ignoring for some totally non malicious reason.

So the data was private to everyone on GLB2Scout? Who's talking about these issues WITHOUT GLB2Scout access? Let me know, and I'll talk to Stobie and fix that.

Anyway as to the Data:

Inside Rushing vs. Cover 3 Tiger
LZ: 4.9
KY: 3.4

Off Tackle Rushing vs. Cover 3 Tiger
LZ: 5.9
KY: 2.9

Outside Rushing vs. Cover 3 Tiger
LZ: 6.7
KY: 1.2

Getting back to the issue, can we fix the LB-CB Salary problem?

I mean in the NFL Corners are payed more than off ball LB on average.

But in general i agree with making CB cheaper. wouldn't even be upset with a buff to CBs or letting SS play OOP LB or FS play OOP CB.

Xars, I have a well built team with S* players in the right spots to run certain plays I like very well. I build to my scheme/style and it's not like I spammed Tiger (128 times out of over 1400 plays or whatever). Tiger is a great play but it isn't the game changer you make it out to be or I'd run it 1400 times a season and nothing else.

Also, your comparison of our teams is apples to oranges. They will not perform plays the exact same way considering we have different builds and different star players in different positions. I even tested all this awhile back when Hawaii was still around by running the exact same defense against him with Lex and KY and got vastly different results... Lex got wrecked and KY steam rolled them.

While your great at getting data, unfortunately I think sometimes you get TV and miss some context.

Originally posted by Xars

Getting back to the issue, can we fix the LB-CB Salary problem?




The #1 defender in Vet is $7.5 mil as a LB. The #12 defender who's the top CB, is $9 mil. To me it seems S*LBs should be around where S*RBs are(Omni King is about $9 mil). And S*CBs down aorund $7.5 mil(equal to WRs)

That will mess with existing teams. So just lower CB salary to LBs level?

Originally posted by Ghanima
That will mess with existing teams. So just lower CB salary to LBs level?

I'd be totally fine with that too.

Originally posted by Xars
But there is a Blitz on the play so you can't just discount it.

Whether or not my RO blitzer is built optimally for the Tiger blitz or not, how do players with no Zone Awareness generate so many more INTs than on Man plays where there's a 6 man rush vs. 5 and they have the appropriate Awareness.

Clearly, Awareness isn't part of the equation.

Hence, why BSB was able to run a Hybrid D with low Awareness scores on players (40-50).

Awareness is part of the equation for interceptions- But it's secondary to having a player over the top. A player will not go for the int nearly as often in man because of the over the top help problem. If you want interceptions in man coverage start to play a C3 over the top (Sky and Cloud plays).

As for the C3 Tiger.. Yes the play is good, but it's extremely beatable. The Guard will peel back to get the LB and with high enough physicals he can. If you want to target the play just play 2 TE, Let him get chipped and the guard gets there. (EX. https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/826459/520045) If we want to fix the play though to make it more "Fair" short passing into zone is what needs to be fixed. The reason the play works so well is even if the blitzer doesn't get there the pass still thrown short where all the EOTP LB's are waiting.

Originally posted by ellix
I'm not sure what your arguing for at this point. Are you really trying to argue that a play is OP when a coach that who many would consider to be the best Zone coach in the game uses is 128 times in a season? And one of the other major contenders for that title in Ghanima uses it never?


And 1980s never uses it either. While my offense sucks, my defense is pretty damn good.

Oh, and C3 is easy to beat, if you call the correct plays.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar

Also, your comparison of our teams is apples to oranges. They will not perform plays the exact same way considering we have different builds and different star players in different positions.


Xars loves to leave out player builds in his equations. It's like every player is a clone in his diatribe against zone defenses. I tried to explain this to him when he was saying 3 WR trips toss weak would destroy my zone defense. Uh...not if my strong ass CB is laying out your weak WRs.

Originally posted by Cybertron
Xars loves to leave out player builds in his equations. It's like every player is a clone in his diatribe against zone defenses. I tried to explain this to him when he was saying 3 WR trips toss weak would destroy my zone defense. Uh...not if my strong ass CB is laying out your weak WRs.

Fixing the 3 wr Trips screen would help as well.

Still though Lower the CB salary

if we got some zone plays designed to stop all trips... It would be fun to play chess game there. Just like any other formations.