Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Corndog
Do we also need Power Through for elusive HBs?

Things do different things on purpose.

This.

Originally posted by BoDiddley
I mean, many elusive backs already use it, or is my sarcasm meter broken.

Those are combo back builds, not the same as giving them a matching SA... by that same logic you can make a hybrid defense where you run both Man and Zone to get the best of both worlds. It's doable. When I ran my Man based KYM teams, I still had at least 50 Zone Awr to take advantage of certain zone plays with great success. I think there are at least 2 good teams coming up now in Rookie that are going to be hybrid types (DlCurt's and Detroit Leos'), they should be fun to watch

I would like to vote they put a bigger hit against conditioning... backs with 40 carries still have 75% of their energy. That or based on size have them lose more energy per play as they are loading around all that extra weight. I think this would fix the Super Power back situation as well as running through 5 guys.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Those are combo back builds, not the same as giving them a matching SA... by that same logic you can make a hybrid defense where you run both Man and Zone to get the best of both worlds. It's doable. When I ran my Man based KYM teams, I still had at least 50 Zone Awr to take advantage of certain zone plays with great success. I think there are at least 2 good teams coming up now in Rookie that are going to be hybrid types (DlCurt's and Detroit Leos'), they should be fun to watch

I'm actually building a hybrid defense at the moment. But my point is an elusive back can still take advantage of power-through. Teams playing straight man D really can't use EotP at all. To me, if a defense wants to invest in both Man & Zone awareness for their DBs, then have at it. No different from combobacks who invest in both elusive and power running. Build diversity keeps the game interesting, imo.

But really, my bigger point was more about improving existing SAs that aren't used or broken, and adding some lacking ones. There were some good vet Abilities in GLB1, that would fit here.

I am building a hybrid defense in rookie as well. It has been fun to try and make work. I am doing it slightly different than Leos and dlcurt though but using some of the same stuff. Thats why I suggested earlier actually having some more defensive plays that are both man and zone. Like split field concepts.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
There is Pick 6... have anyone tried to make it work? I don't particularly like it as that I built my Man CB's to be shutdown types. Maybe more testing needs to be done with that SA then see if it needs some love or just adjusting.


Pick 6 procs for man or zone. There's not even a comparison between the two, one fire after the pick is made, one fires after the throw, for the duration of the play, and gives a higher chance of the actual int. I don't need to worry about taking the pick to the house if I've already demoralized the offense from doing anything besides following it up with another pick or two later.

The only reason I'm in favor of a counterpart is because man D has no morale boost/loss opportunity vs pass. If it wasn't so huge of a gain I probably wouldn't care enough to even respond to you (as I stated earlier).

I'm also not opposed to a deflect + zone SA similar to On an Island.

Originally posted by 4chanCitizen
People don't want this because you think it would give the game more depth or whatever, They want this because they realize it would be busted as fuck. It also would make teams that are already virtually untouchable even more insane. Dream Team and Hawaii Bulls are both the #1 Team in their perspective ladder ranks. I could only imagine the terror if their players had the Strongest zone SA.

You do realize that the two others that came flying to the defense of this not happening are both zone teams who are #1 in their respective ladders, too, right? Mind you, in rookie AND vet, maybe run D isn't so bad at low levels w zone.

We want something similar to it because EoTP is already "busted as fuck"

All of this is an aside anyway, I'm advocating for any new SA or tweaks to make others more viable. No use in continuing on with it.

Originally posted by o The Boss x
You do realize that the two others that came flying to the defense of this not happening are both zone teams who are #1 in their respective ladders, too, right? Mind you, in rookie AND vet, maybe run D isn't so bad at low levels w zone.

We want something similar to it because EoTP is already "busted as fuck"

All of this is an aside anyway, I'm advocating for any new SA or tweaks to make others more viable. No use in continuing on with it.

Yet I'd bet Pick 6 would not combo with EotP considering both work on a timer, much the same as Spin Cycle will not combo with Tunnel Vision. OAI would be about useless in Zone because you just don't have the points to build actual CB's who could make it great...you have to spend way more points in different skills to make a decent dot than you have to do in Man where you can specialize your CB's builds. Regardless, Man has way more SA's to work with than Zone by far, despite not having one that inflicts morale loss. Instead of making Man even stronger, how about we even things up by giving Zone more than two SA's to work with.

DlCurt isn't running pure Zone, and on the contrary you have the #1 team in your Ladder using Man.

PS.

I am all for new SA's or tweaking old ones, we can both agree on that. I'd love a QB Slide SA for scrambling and I'd like to see the cost of a few skills reduced which might open up skills used by them being better.

Mind you, in almost 50 seasons how many Zone teams have won ladders vs Man teams.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Yet I'd bet Pick 6 would not combo with EotP considering both work on a timer, much the same as Spin Cycle will not combo with Tunnel Vision. OAI would be about useless in Zone because you just don't have the points to build actual CB's who could make it great...you have to spend way more points in different skills to make a decent dot than you have to do in Man where you can specialize your CB's builds. Regardless, Man has way more SA's to work with than Zone by far, despite not having one that inflicts morale loss. Instead of making Man even stronger, how about we even things up by giving Zone more than two SA's to work with.

DlCurt isn't running pure Zone, and on the contrary you have the #1 team in your Ladder using Man.




Zone isn't weaker than Man though. GE long ago, had the best defense bar none when he was here running zones, he just had a horrible goalline based offense.

And current zone teams can blitz better, cover the outside run better, and with the newer plays added...cover inside runs just as well. All without having to invest in all the stats Man defenders do. And the best SA in the game. I just don't see Zone is needing help, it really doesn't. And giving Man a proper int SA isn't a nerf to zones, it's helping Man D.

All that said, again passing SAs needs fixing too if that's done, cause it's a bit crazy that Pass Tech & Acc have no SAs.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Yet I'd bet Pick 6 would not combo with EotP considering both work on a timer, much the same as Spin Cycle will not combo with Tunnel Vision.

But you haven't tried because why would you? EoTP already gives a 5+ more in speed in quick than pick 6 does, affects morale, fires before the attempt is made, and doesn't even have a timer.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Man has way more SA's to work with than Zone by far

Bro, what? Defensive SAs literally include ONE man SA. As you pointed out, there are two zone SAs. Are there a plethora of man SAs that just aren't available for me?

I'm trying to leave this conversation but you just come back saying something stupider than before. Next you'll argue that they aren't as viable in zone as man, GTFO, they have the literal same effects across both schemes. Zone teams don't use some because there are better ones for them to go with, and only so many SA points to go around.

Monster hit becomes a whole lot more viable when your player has a head of steam behind them, given the 50% maximum speed firing requirement, but you don't hear me complaining about how man CBs can't get it to fire against their man cover.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
I am all for new SA's or tweaking old ones, we can both agree on that.

First off this entire conversation has been absolutely hilarious.

I think we all have the general agreement that new unique SA abilities would be good for the game. This has gotten a little out of hand here bois.

It's almost like the Two Political Parties in Goal Line Blitz and "Man Defense" and "Zone Defense". At the end of the day we all want to just have fun and enjoy the game....right? Let's all calm down and be friends. Drink some Tea. Smoke a blunt. It's not worth getting this upset over guys.

Let's try to think of more suggestions without starting a civil war.

Originally posted by 4chanCitizen
First off this entire conversation has been absolutely hilarious.

I think we all have the general agreement that new unique SA abilities would be good for the game. This has gotten a little out of hand here bois.

It's almost like the Two Political Parties in Goal Line Blitz and "Man Defense" and "Zone Defense". At the end of the day we all want to just have fun and enjoy the game....right? Let's all calm down and be friends. Drink some Team. Smoke a blunt. It's not worth getting this upset over guys.

Let's try to think of more suggestions without starting a civil war.

Does that make me Libertarian for trying to blend the 2 defenses?

Originally posted by BoDiddley
Zone isn't weaker than Man though. GE long ago, had the best defense bar none when he was here running zones, he just had a horrible goalline based offense.

And current zone teams can blitz better, cover the outside run better, and with the newer plays added...cover inside runs just as well. All without having to invest in all the stats Man defenders do. And the best SA in the game. I just don't see Zone is needing help, it really doesn't. And giving Man a proper int SA isn't a nerf to zones, it's helping Man D.

All that said, again passing SAs needs fixing too if that's done, cause it's a bit crazy that Pass Tech & Acc have no SAs.

GE did not have the best defense in that era. He had a great one, for sure, but not the best. I personally wrecked him with my Man defense back then (I think I only ever lost to GE once total, if not it wasn't more than a few I lost to him). I'm pretty sure I cost him Ladder that last season he played. Outside of my team, we had Dredgar's always good Man teams, BSB's all-star chocked full defense, Osiris' team, Rob's teams, etc etc just to name a few.

A lot of Zone getting better has to do with the addition of new plays and more star players being used than what GE did. Zone does not have an advantage in being able to build better dots via stats, it takes more skills being invested in to make the plays work than in Man and I speak from experience...I have to spend way more physical skills than I ever did in Man to get these plays to work. EotP is great, but zone basically only has 2 SA's and that's it (one of which rarely get's used)... and they are not asking for a proper Int SA for Man, they are asking for Zone's SA to be given to Man. That's a whole different ball game.

That being said, I'm not against new SA's, I've just not seen anything suggested that wasn't copying EotP and giving it to Man D.

Originally posted by rabidlizard24
Does that make me Libertarian for trying to blend the 2 defenses?

Hybrid defense 100% third party option.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
It works, but not well..

The juke is so small the defender just stays in place and still gets the tackles, it has no effect currently.

This is a typical juke now:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/749748/1571190
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/756075/1315688
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/755598/1197093

most of my dots broke tackles come off of high elusiveness like on this play:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/749748/1571156

That's with 90+ elusive and gold Juke.

Tbh these probably aren’t the best example, there’s not really much places for the HB to break out to. Before juke was extremely unrealistic, but I wouldn’t say it’s currently bad. It’s more situational now (as it should) when it was definitely more of a carrying component before.

One thing I will say about current defense is that since pursuit has become much more greatly needed for all positions, there’s a lot more crowding of the ball carrier than one on ones these days. I personally think that it plays a decent factor into its current effectiveness at least.

Originally posted by o The Boss x
Bro, what? Defensive SAs literally include ONE man SA. As you pointed out, there are two zone SAs. Are there a plethora of man SAs that just aren't available for me?

If I thought it would work I would try it, but I know from how Spin Cycle and Tunnel Vision conflict that they will not.

Originally posted by o The Boss x
Bro, what? Defensive SAs literally include ONE man SA. As you pointed out, there are two zone SAs. Are there a plethora of man SAs that just aren't available for me?

Man has 4 to Zone's 2. I will say that while you can use TDS with Zone it's clearly not intended to do so.

Zone: EotP, Zone Shark

Man: OAI, Cover Expert (cuz you need Cov Tech in Zone, right), Pick Six (Conflicts with EotP), Third Down Stopper (cuz you need Cov Tech in Zone, right...it could be used but has wasted parts obviously)

Originally posted by o The Boss x
I'm trying to leave this conversation but you just come back saying something stupider than before. Next you'll argue that they aren't as viable in zone as man, GTFO, they have the literal same effects across both schemes. Zone teams don't use some because there are better ones for them to go with, and only so many SA points to go around.

Monster hit becomes a whole lot more viable when your player has a head of steam behind them, given the 50% maximum speed firing requirement, but you don't hear me complaining about how man CBs can't get it to fire against their man cover.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar

I am all for new SA's or tweaking old ones, we can both agree on that.

Stupid? LOL. Come on, you haven't even tried to run a pure Zone defense. You're biased and your answers are just rhetoric. That's what's really asinine here.

Anyways... I wish I was able to afford to try MH on Zone CBs, so I dunno where that came from...I'm only able to put it on my Safeties, like I did when I ran Man.

But I digress, I think you are missing the point that the defenses are different for a reason.

PS.

No one is forcing you to keep debating.