Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar


Or it's a bad match up for a non-star QB versus a one of the better pass coverage S*LB's in the game.


Ah yeah, because what determines if a QB should make a bad read is that the guy standing there in the path of his pass is a S*

Should the fact that a non star HB has the ball mean he runs directly at a superstar safety? What other bad behavior should automatically happen absed upon the fact that the guy on the receiving end is a star?

So, because he's a star, my 70 awareness and gold knowledge of the play mean dick and he should throw it directly at a guy?



Awesome.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
He tried to throw over the defender, the defender however had hellacious vertical when EotP fires.

QBs don't have the determination to know if they can throw it over the defender, they throw it right at guys, it didn't have much height to it as he gunned it as hard as he could, as they tend to do. the only time a pass is lofted is when they are off balance or just have a noodle for an arm.

This wasn't due to some amazing vertical, which 55 by virtue of a boost really isn't. He tried to throw it directly past a defender, as QBs try to do against zone all the damned time.

I mean seriously, watch where the ball makes contact with your LB, in his damned chest. He jumped, but it's not like this was thrown particularly far over his head.


And even if this play was a 'good decision' what about the insane amounts of other examples that happen daily? It's not like other people aren't seeing the same thing, it's not like you aren't. I'm not trying to take away from the fact you built good players, they should be able to create turnovers especially if the line gets pressure, force bad passes, break up plays with running starts, all that good stuff - but the game doesn't implement zones properly, players don't shade their assignments properly, QBs don't read the zones properly, they use the same code as for man to man ignoring underneath coverage, or at least severely underestimating it.

When my QB loaded up for the pass in question, the player was literally only a couple steps from your defender, which in a man to man situation would be a good time to throw it. against a zone defender in waiting, it's asking to get picked.

I mean, you don't even really need to jump to catch balls that high over your head.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/444219/1412288

Originally posted by Raid
High awareness, Gold play knowledge again, high morale, throws it RIGHT at a defender again, he threw it RIGHT at him 3 times this game

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/714511/935556

Ball is thrown at tick 37 and should be thrown to about the 37 yard hash mark, instead, it's bulleted inside the numbers ~5 yards shallow. The main problem might just be with leading receivers in this game. While a "loft" setting should allow the ball to get over the LB, it still would likely result in the ball being thrown to a place where the WR has to turn back for it. Guess it'd be better than nothing.

55 vert with EotP firing is nice and all but a corner route shouldn't be able to be guarded by an inside LB in cover 2 sink who lines up inside the TE, it should be contested by the safety or the CB.

Originally posted by Raid
Ah yeah, because what determines if a QB should make a bad read is that the guy standing there in the path of his pass is a S*

Should the fact that a non star HB has the ball mean he runs directly at a superstar safety? What other bad behavior should automatically happen absed upon the fact that the guy on the receiving end is a star?

So, because he's a star, my 70 awareness and gold knowledge of the play mean dick and he should throw it directly at a guy?



Awesome.

Even against Man Cov, QB's try to wiz the ball in-between defenders regardless of Awr... what your seeing here is that you have a QB trying to make a throw versus a S*Cov LB who is built to win vs a QB with 85 Tech let alone one with a middling 70 Tech. This has nothing to do with Zone.

Originally posted by Raid
QBs don't have the determination to know if they can throw it over the defender, they throw it right at guys, it didn't have much height to it as he gunned it as hard as he could, as they tend to do. the only time a pass is lofted is when they are off balance or just have a noodle for an arm.

This wasn't due to some amazing vertical, which 55 by virtue of a boost really isn't. He tried to throw it directly past a defender, as QBs try to do against zone all the damned time.

I mean seriously, watch where the ball makes contact with your LB, in his damned chest. He jumped, but it's not like this was thrown particularly far over his head.


And even if this play was a 'good decision' what about the insane amounts of other examples that happen daily? It's not like other people aren't seeing the same thing, it's not like you aren't. I'm not trying to take away from the fact you built good players, they should be able to create turnovers especially if the line gets pressure, force bad passes, break up plays with running starts, all that good stuff - but the game doesn't implement zones properly, players don't shade their assignments properly, QBs don't read the zones properly, they use the same code as for man to man ignoring underneath coverage, or at least severely underestimating it.

When my QB loaded up for the pass in question, the player was literally only a couple steps from your defender, which in a man to man situation would be a good time to throw it. against a zone defender in waiting, it's asking to get picked.



The ball was lofted, he jumped, that simple. Yes QB's sometimes throw directly, but obviously this was not the case on that play. As far as the others, QB's try to throw to covered WR's all the time even in Man Coverage and fit the ball in a tight window... if you look at Quick Hitter or Slot SA's you can get an idea about this. The better the QB's tech skill the better he gets at putting the ball into that window... while your QB has great awareness, his tech skill is lacking, especially in this which is a bad match up for him.

Nothing is broken here.

Originally posted by Raid
I mean, you don't even really need to jump to catch balls that high over your head.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/444219/1412288



That's a shit throw right to the def player, you know this. It was short and dropped right over the defender's head into his hands. QB obviously failed prob on the power of the throw as well as the accuracy...I will say his pass awr was good looking at who he intended, but the rest of the toss botched on him.

I mean, we can all go in circles on this with our views... but tbh, we need C-Dog to come on here and hopefully enlighten us on the mechanics or some sort of breakdown. I just don't agree with y'all's assessment. Besides, are you wanting to nerf zone so its not playable? It's not like you can't get chunks of yards vs zone compared to running man as is. If zone stops getting TO's, then what's the point of playing it anymore?

I thought we wanted variety.

From my view zone is still weaker than man, maybe substantially weaker. Any nerf would kill it all together along with young teams using it like Alaska.

Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
From my view zone is still weaker than man, maybe substantially weaker. Any nerf would kill it all together along with young teams using it like Alaska.

Or old teams like Lex and myself. I know Osiris looks forward to playing tough teams, so I'm sure he has a game plan for us zone teams. Biggest issue I see if anything, offenses use same plays over and over, try new ones.

couple things (could be way off here)

Vertical itself may just be a penalty check to the roll for a "high thrown" ball. The higher the number could simply just reduce the penalty on the INT. The vertical animation is probably whats just built into the game (take a look at rookie defender hops) I guess the biggest thing is dont put too much thought into the visuals as you are I think They've mentioned this before on like plays that appear like the runner is passed the sticks.

Your INT issue with badpasses:
I mean this could be partially due to the code i suppose as far as reading a guy open or not. OR it's just you failed an accuracy check so it could in turn make it an easier INT check for the lb as well (once again depending on how the rolls actually work) Lets say you fail the accuracy roll, and lets say 2 defensive guys are in zone in the "area" of the intended target (this area could also change perhaps thats even where technique comes in) Perhaps the rule is on a errant throw, defender A followed by Defender B roll for the INT or DEFL check. This once again takes away from the visual thinking and more like a card game or just a data simulation mixed in with animation.

Could be way off only Bort and C-Dog truly know but just an outside perspective of a table top gamer

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
I mean, we can all go in circles on this with our views... but tbh, we need C-Dog to come on here and hopefully enlighten us on the mechanics or some sort of breakdown. I just don't agree with y'all's assessment. Besides, are you wanting to nerf zone so its not playable? It's not like you can't get chunks of yards vs zone compared to running man as is. If zone stops getting TO's, then what's the point of playing it anymore?

I thought we wanted variety.

I want them to overhaul it so that it’s viable as a system instead of being broken pieces fitted together in a way to try and make it ‘viable’

Zone should not be as strong at turnovers, but be much better in general at stopping plays. It is broke both ways, and it’s not fun because of it. And it’s broke not by balancing, but literally by how the game works. Defensive players just stand like statues in their zones and let passes in the holes go, they don’t react to the run as well despite the fact that they are literally staring at the backfield and are more likely to see a run, they don’t play properly. And to make up for it, QBs don’t read the defense properly, it’s broken in two ways that they ‘balanced’ out to make it viable.

Then they made INTs waaaaaaaaaaaaay easier to get, and so the balance may be off again. But I don’t want them balancing it by balancing a broken mechanic, I want them to see if there’s any way to improve Botha AIs just a wee bit.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
That's a shit throw right to the def player, you know this. It was short and dropped right over the defender's head into his hands. QB obviously failed prob on the power of the throw as well as the accuracy...I will say his pass awr was good looking at who he intended, but the rest of the toss botched on him.

That’s a WR and the ball comes in about as high as the bullet pass my QB tried to sneak by your LB. I’m just saying players can get to the ball without a “hellacious” 55 vert at that height and QBs should either be able to loft it to avoid the guy or throw it more toward the open field to avoid the guy.

But that’s not how GLB code works, he will bullet it each time, so he need to read this as not open.

And Myrick, I’m not saying you shouldn’t have been ABLE to intercept that ball, obviously, even if I had high tech.

My point is that ball should not have been thrown, at all. If your justification is that the ball was fine, why are you picking on 70 tech then when your 55 with a boost vert guy got high enough in the air to have the ball hit him in the chest?

That super high pass was super hard for you to get to, with your...if 70 is “middling” as you put it, man 55 must mean a skill is downright bad right?

So it’s a good decision to throw it over any players head there, despite the fact a guy with downright bad vertical absolutely crushed the pass and had it hit him in the chest?


That’s a great time to pass the ball.



That’s all I’m saying, in real life the QB could pass the ball here, by lofting it, or throwing a bit toward the open field, but they can’t. You keep saying he lofted it, but never once has that been an option for QBs in this game and it’s not been on the changelog. CD literally has told us in the past that QBs always throw it as hard as they can and the arc is purely determined by strength of throw.



Also, throwing the ball to a covered wide receiver because pressure is coming, is a heck of a lot different than trying to throw it past a guy without any forced pressure.

First of all, if the receiver is in the area of the defender, it's a lot less risky as two people are fighting over the ball instead of one guy getting a free chance at it as it goes by him.

Second of all, QBs don't tend to do that at all in man to man coverage unless they are forced, no pressure is being applied here to cause an error in judgment like that. It's the QB literally just thinking he's doing the right thing here even with good awareness and time to watch it develop without pressure.

Originally posted by vipermaw82
The vertical animation is probably whats just built into the game (take a look at rookie defender hops) I guess the biggest thing is dont put too much thought into the visuals as you are I think They've mentioned this before on like plays that appear like the runner is passed the sticks.

That's why I linked to the WR play, he caught the ball that high off the ground without jumping at all, and though the vert animation may be stock, the ball height is not and is shown on every play. you can pause the game and see how far off the ground it is by the shadow, and if you check both players had the ball at about the same height when they went to catch it.

Which means my QB threw a pass over a guys head who probably didn't even need to jump to catch it.