Warrior General Games

I'm not gonna really get into this with a homer, dude. I have a ton of facts posted on a forum that I was banned from. If you feel like searching through the forum for them, fine. Stats don't prove everything. If they did, Aaron Rodgers would be better than Roethlisberger and etc.

You're crazy if you think Manning isn't a close #2.

I bet you're also gonna say that Spygate didn't really help the Patriots.

And I'm not saying Brady is a bad qb in the playoffs by any means. He's probably the calmest dude when it matters. I'm just saying that, when it was ALL on Brady, and he had to take the best offense in the world to get 17 or more points, he choked.

If you think Brady is better before the snap than Manning, okay. Whatever.

I know that most Pats fans hate the Colts and vice versa. I'm not gonna get into it because I know you're not debating this to come to an intellectual agreement. You're doing this to prove your guy is the best. It happens. It's not my gig though.

Well it would suck if I agree and we just had a love fest...Nothing better than a good sports argument. I'll go by the one stat that matters, winning, and Brady hands down does that better than anyone. I think Manning is a great QB but if I needed one game to be won I am taking Brady every day of the week and that has nothing to do with being a Pats fan.

I'd love to continue this one though, please enlighten me exactly how Spygate helped the Patriots? Your answer will tell me exactly how much you know about football....

And, this is nothing personal Soap, it's all good with me! I am just stuck home on a Friday night!

Nah bud, I'm all for a good debate. I just don't like getting into it with people who are biased. It's why I steer clear of Roethlisberger arguments and the such. I mean, if something's said and there's something to be said about it (to have a clearer picture about what's going on) I'll be glad to say something... but I just don't really like it when I'm emotionally invested or someone else is.

Spygate is pretty easy to explain for the playoffs. Playoff football is where a lot of teams add wrinkles, especially on defense. That means they'll line up against a formation the same way, but run a different defense. The Pats can then video tape the defense as well as the signal the DC gave before the defense was run, and after halftime, they'll know what to look for.

And don't try to downplay it. I won't debate how much of an impact it had, but it gave an advantage. Steroids don't help batters make contact (I mean I guess a little cuz bat speed), but that doesn't mean it doesn't help. An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage no matter how you slice it. If you want to say it wasn't a big deal... Goodell shelled out an amazingly huge punishment for it. Although he's on a huge power trip, Goodell doesn't do shit for no reason.

And that's all I'm doin. Pats and Eagles fans seem to be the least willing to hear anything that might peg their franchise down a notch. I talked about Rodney Harrison using HGH and some guy tried to tell me that it wasn't steroids so it's not a big deal. Maybe it's unfair to you for me to be jaded, but you've shown all the signs thus far.

And I don't think it's a personal thing either way. I just don't like it when emotion comes into play in an intellectual debate. I don't like playing in those muddied waters.

Edit: And although I know it's just debate tactics, the whole "I'm losing respect for you" is something that, when I see it, I realize that the person's pulling out all the stops. At that point, it becomes more "ESPN 1st and 10" than it does a football debate. I don't like Skip Bayless.

Skip Bayless, nice one....Might have been over the top on the respect thing! As far as spygate, to say that the Patriots could video tape the signals and then crack the code during the half and then make adjustments for the second half is about as far fetched as people can get. Watch the sidelines of an NFL game or College game and you see people holding up signs, some live, some dummy. Happens all the time with the paranoia of the league and stealing signs. What the Patriots did was pretty straight forward and other coaches have openly admitted that they did the same things. Here is what they did:

Record the down and distance
Tape all potential personnel that could be sending in signs
Record the play

After the game, that video tape is broken down and now the Pats have signals but more importantly what that DC did for each down and distance. That in itself is a huge advantage but again is done by every coach in America. To think that they could crack the code during the half is a little far fetched to me, but I could be wrong.

Here is one for you, I was sitting in a bar last week in Boston and I made the comment that I thought Jason Varitek was overrated! That went over well!

Originally posted by rjssob
Soapbox, could be the most foolish post in the history of football. Manning vs Brady is not even close, when it comes to a big game you want Brady, he does not make mistakes and does not have happy feet. Manning has had some of his worst games ever in the playoffs. You want to talk supporting cast:

Manning QB
James RB, Addai
Harrison WR
Wayne WR
Stokely WR
Pollard or Dallas Clark TE

Up until the Moss trade, nobody here could even come up with an all pro caliber weapon that Brady has ever had. You talk about FG's, somebody had to lead a game winning drive to give Vinateri a chance didn't they? Go back and watch the tuck rule, watch Woodson hit Brady in the helmet with his hands, that is a penalty that was not called my friend. I'll keep rambling on this one, it should be fun. Manning and the superbowl run, probably one of the worst performances in the playoffs could have been Manning against Kansas City or Baltimore, more INT's than TD's and if you want to talk defense, the only reason either Manning has a ring is because of their defense.

Simple way to end this one, go to Cold Hard Football facts and plug that same argument and it is no contest. After the Patriots Superbowl victory this coming season Brady will be mentioned in the all time best category. Look for comeback player of the year, League MVP and Super Bowl MVP. Who is the homer in this thread!

Oh and if you need to know, Manning in both high school and college was a choke artist, no bowl victories for the chosen one!




Also, despite Eli Mannings game winning drive, does anyone remember what happened the possession right before? Brady drove his team down the field in the 4th Q to take the lead in the super bowl. Then the Giants eld their way to a SB.

My family's from Boston so I'm a Sox/Celts fan and I was born in PA so I'm a Steelers/Penguins fan, so yeah.

Varitek sucks at throwing guys out atm... but I think he's good with pitch selection. Ofc, nothing seems to be going right atm.

As to your spygate comments, it would make things harder but I mean with 3-4 guys watching it live and with any experience, it could certainly be done before halftime. Just have each one take notes in between plays.

Fuck Brady he blows!!!


Signed..

Eagles fan

Originally posted by soapbox
Inb4 Patriots fan po-...oh shit.

When it was all on Brady's shoulders, he crumbled too. Brady had a defense in his good postseasons. What about '05, when Brady threw a 99 yard INT to Champ Bailey?

So yeah, Manning was bad without a defense. Brady has been bad, as of late, WITH a defense.

Since the reasoning for Brady being better than Manning and vice versa have been about supporting cast (Brady's defense, Manning's offense), I ignored that. I looked at what the QB does all on his own. And that's pre-snap reads. Manning wins no contest.

You say Brady's offense was bad in '01-'06, but how'd he do in the superbowl with the most prolific offense in NFL history? 14 points. Matt Cassel stepped in and put up pro bowl worthy numbers in his first year starting.

There have been dozens of arguments both ways with very valid points as to who is better. Since I had to take a stance, I'm taking Manning. Besides, if he was so good and his offense was so bad, he'd have 3 SB MVPs instead of his WRs having a combined 2. His receivers then were really underrated, and if they didn't have injury issues now, would probably be real good (when Hasselbeck got Branch, he said that Brady underrated him [in a message Brady sent Hasselbeck] and that Branch was probably the best WR he's thrown to and the such).

The only reason Brady had 2 of his rings were because of defense. The other was because an NFL kicker doesn't know how to keep the ball in bounds.

When was that article published? I mean Brady had I think the #8 defense and the #1 offense in NFL history and put up 14 points. I don't care how you slice it... he choked HARD in that game.

No, I don't think Brady's a clearcut #2. I think it's #1 and #1a. And those cold hard facts are certainly selective facts these days. Brady has had the luxury of managing games. Manning rarely has.

How was Brady's offense bad '01-'06? He brought a team to 3 SB titles with guys like David Givens and Patton, and boy they did great without him. He won more games than any QB. The point of football is to score 1 more point than the next guy, Brady does that better than anyone else, it is not to run up scores against crappy AFC Central teams.

Oh, and part of the reason the Colts defense was so crappy was because their was no money left after the players needed to keep Peyton happy. Brady has taken paycuts to get the right players.

Originally posted by soapbox
My family's from Boston so I'm a Sox/Celts fan and I was born in PA so I'm a Steelers/Penguins fan, so yeah.

Varitek sucks at throwing guys out atm... but I think he's good with pitch selection. Ofc, nothing seems to be going right atm.

As to your spygate comments, it would make things harder but I mean with 3-4 guys watching it live and with any experience, it could certainly be done before halftime. Just have each one take notes in between plays.

soc yanks - extra frames right now...Papelbon just came in...

Patton was one of Brees' go to guys on the '06 Saints offense.

Givens got hurt when he went to Tennessee.

And LOL at Brady not running up scores. Did you see the 2007 season exactly?

AFC Central... this is 2009 bud. That was awhile ago.

As far as the Colts defense... back then, the Tampa 2 LBs were still considered undersized guys. They weren't highly paid back then. I agree Manning wanted too much money, but this isn't about that. He might have shot himself in the foot, but that has nothing to do with how well he played.

Edit: I don't want to admit it, but I'm watching the baseball channel AND I have ESPN's gamecast on. Meh.

Originally posted by killertoad
Fuck Brady he blows!!!


Signed..

Eagles fan

Fly Eagles Fly...

Actually the year Manning won the SB, Indy signed Eagles D coordinator Jim Johnson's best assistant to run their CBs, Leslie Frazier. The Colts pass D went from 15th to 2nd in 1 year. Yeah I'm a homer and i hate Brady, but the man has done more with less talent surrounding him than Manning ever did.

Originally posted by killertoad
Actually the year Manning won the SB, Indy signed Eagles D coordinator Jim Johnson's best assistant to run their CBs, Leslie Frazier. The Colts pass D went from 15th to 2nd in 1 year. Yeah I'm a homer and i hate Brady, but the man has done more with less talent surrounding him than Manning ever did.

Give Manning a good defense, championship.

I'm not really a fan of quarterbacks anyways. Steelers fan. I don't think Pats fans would be either if Brady wasn't named by about half of NFL watchers to be the best QB in the NFL.

I'm a bigger fan of James Harrison and Aaron Smith than I am Ben Roflsburger

Give Manning a running game and defense so he doesn't have to win a playoff game and he will win....Wait, isn't that how they won the Superbowl? His playoff stats that playoff run where horrible...Now I am done!

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00_playoffs.htm

I hate closers in non save situations, always seems to backfire...