Warrior General Games

Originally posted by wormser1971
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvUIQZ7t7Ak same video... just the parts you wanted ignored!

People burning... narrator saying "it was like the plane hit the lobby.... I spread no lies. You, however, try to suppress the truth.

Yeah, fire went down the elevator shafts when the plane hit. Once again I will reiterate that if there were C4 demolition explosives going off when the plane hit then the building would have collapsed a lot sooner than it did. As the building starts to collapse there are no explosions being heard, you can see that from the video from inside the building.

Originally posted by baumusc
Yeah, fire went down the elevator shafts when the plane hit. Once again I will reiterate that if there were C4 demolition explosives going off when the plane hit then the building would have collapsed a lot sooner than it did. As the building starts to collapse there are no explosions being heard, you can see that from the video from inside the building.

You really are stupid. Plain and simply, an uneducated buffoon trying to argue points that science cannot back up. A fireball traveled more than 900 feet. Through several elevator shafts, (there are only 3 that serviced those areas, so it was a very opportunistic fireball) without fuel, because as stated by you earlier, the fuel was burning the materials to weaken metal on the 90th floor. So now, 10k gallons of fuel is burning up office materials, weakening steel, not losing any of itself on the fireball that shot out of the building at the impact zone, traveling down 900 feet of elevator shaft in only a couple of elevators, while missing all of the other elevators (otherwise it was replicating the fuel and creating more jet fuel, which would be fun).

One floor of the WTC towers is equivalent to one acre.
Here is a picture of a 10k gallon tank http://johnsonlumberllc.com/index.php/used-equipment/johnson-lumber-equipment-for-sale-158/

I have shown you the math on how much surface area that much fuel covers, and demonstrated that it would be 1/10th of an inch deep on the floor

here is a ruler http://www.wikihow.com/Read-a-Ruler and instructions on how to read it

There is no possible way that fuel could have traveled that far without burning before it got there. Fireballs need fuel. Without fuel, there is no fireball. Try using a lighter with no fuel. Fire is not a solid mass. It goes out when there is nothing left to burn.

You seriously can't be this stupid?!

Incendiary explosions in the lobby and in the basement levels accompanied the destruction of the North Tower of the World Trade Center (WTC). The evidence for these incendiary explosions is significant and includes numerous eyewitness testimonies and photographic evidence. The official, government investigation conducted by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) did not address these phenomena in any meaningful way and offered only a weak suggestion that is demonstrably false.

NIST admitted to the presence of an incendiary explosion at the concourse level and to the deaths and injuries caused by it, stating, a “fireball killed or injured several occupants in the Concourse Level lobby (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p 73).” However, a scientific explanation was never provided. Instead, an untested hypothesis was given as fact.

“There are numerous media reports of building occupants being burned in the ground-floor lobby of WTC 1 following the aircraft impact. Numerous eyewitness accounts describe a large flash fire on the concourse floor lobby at the time of aircraft impact, that came from one or more of the elevator shafts that ran from the concourse floor of the tower past the floors where the aircraft impact took place. This observation suggests that sufficient burning liquid aviation fuel entered at least one of these elevator shafts to continue burning, while it fell roughly 1,175 feet. Even after falling this distance, sufficient unburned fuel was available to create the overpressure that opened the elevator shaft at the concourse level and forced additional unburned fuel into the lobby area, creating the extensive flash fire observed.” NIST NCSTAR 1-5A, p 80

It would have been easy to test this “jet fuel bolus” hypothesis but, as with the other features of the official account, no testing was done. That’s probably because the scientists at NIST knew that this hypothesis was very improbable to begin with.

Consider WTC1, where the plane hit the center of the north face, and all of the approximately 10,000 gallons of jet fuel was located in the wing tanks (i.e. none in the center tank according to NIST). There were three elevator shafts that served most of the floors and ran down to the concourse.

For the jet fuel bolus hypothesis to be even remotely reasonable, the following five challenges would have to be overcome.

1) The jet fuel that was available to flow down and away via openings, after accounting for the external fireballs and impact zone fires, was estimated by FEMA to be about 3,500 gallons. And NIST stated that, “No evidence or analysis emerged that significantly altered the FEMA estimate” (NCSTAR 1-5F, p 56). The 3,500 gallons would need to flow evenly across the entire, acre-wide area of the impact floors.

2) The impact damage would have had to fully open, and leave exposed, the 22 elevator shafts in the core area of the impact zone (or the 30+ in the WTC2 impact zone). The shafts that were most important would be for cars #6, #7, and #50, the express elevators traveling the entire distance from top to bottom. In WTC1, these were located at the opposite side of the core from the impact zone.

3) We must assume that no more than a proportionate amount of jet fuel flowed into the express elevator shafts on the opposite side, after traveling through more than half of floor space of the tower. This would be one-22nd of the total available, or 159 gallons. There were also 12 in x 18 in telephone cable openings between floors, however, and holes in the floors made by the impacting aircraft, through which fuel would have been lost. A realistic maximum therefore might be 120 gallons in each shaft, assuming an equal amount of the spilling jet fuel made it all the way across to the express elevator side.

IMG_13044) The jet fuel would have adhered to the surface of the elevator shaft as it traveled downward. The elevator shafts were lined with 2-inch thick gypsum planking and the low surface tension jet fuel would have wetted this thoroughly. An estimate of the surface area in an express shaft is 60,000 square feet. A quick experiment shows that gypsum board soaks up approximately 0.03 gallons of kerosene per square foot. All the available jet fuel (120 gallons) would have been lost in this process before the jet fuel bolus reached the mid-point of its fall.

Therefore the jet fuel that was available to flow down and away from the floors of impact could not have reached the concourse level of the WTC towers.

5) However, a lot of damage was attributed to this impossible jet fuel bolus. Eyewitnesses stated that there were intense elevator area fires in the lower half of the building. There were fires on the 40th floor, and the 22nd floor, and witnesses said that the elevator doors on the 22nd floor had been blown out from fires or explosions in the elevator shafts. Even if a highly disproportionate quantity of jet fuel from the aircraft had somehow caused these fires and the related damage, there certainly would not have have been any left to reach the lobby.

All of this ignores the questions of how unburned jet fuel could make its way around the elevator cabs in the shafts, how it could re-accumulate at the lower level, and how the supposed fuel/air mix could become optimum and then ignite. It also ignores how much jet fuel would be required to produce the explosive energy needed to destroy so much of the lobby, including the huge windows and the massive granite wall coverings, and kill people in that area.

The jet fuel bolus hypothesis also ignores the eyewitness testimonies of massive explosions within the lobby.

If NIST had done even a minimal amount of physical testing to support its weak fuel bolus suggestion, the hypothesis would have been easily disproven. But that would have left people to wonder what actually did cause these incendiary fires and the ones in the basement levels. The answers to those questions would almost certainly add to the other, extensive evidence for the presence of energetic, incendiary materials at the WTC.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/911-cover-up-jet-fuel-caused-the-incendiary-explosions-in-the-wtc-lobby/5358433

Witnesses to the explosions
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html

You are still making the assumption that 100% of these are wrong/lies.... Just an easy way to ignore evidence, I guess

Originally posted by Time Trial
Demolition companies also wouldn't spread debris and ash for a 20 block radius.

Just because that's not the preferred way to collapse a building doesn't mean that's not one way to knock out a building.

They exploded a plane into the building. A giant fucking bomb. Then the support structure of the floors around the explosion were worn away by the fire and the pressure building up as more and more support was being transferred to those supports that remained. Eventually half of a building was being supported by insufficient support + those supports were being worn down by extreme heat. The supports gave way, causing half of a building to come crashing down on what remained of the building. The supports on the level below the first to give way were also weakened from trying to support the building, and they gave way. Now you've got half of a building with the approximate falling force of two floors. I don't imagine that the supports on the next floor were built to hold up anything close to that kind of force.

That's how those buildings came falling down. Nothing else. The explanation makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the theory that someone was in on the attack and triggered explosives to help the building fall.

If it was the government: why would they help to collapse their own economy? If it was the Republicans in power who planned it, they would have needed to have been planning the attack from well before they got into power. And if it was, don't you think that the Democrats would have found something in the years since they assumed power? If they did, don't you think they would have used that information to bring down the Republican party? The fact that no memos or intelligence have been found indicating that this was a government plan, despite the length of time in power by the opposing party shows that, in addition to the general implausibility, this was not a government attack.

If it was the CIA: do you really think that this wouldn't have been leaked by WikiLeaks or some retired operative? Some up and coming operative trying to make it through the internal power struggle following the change of Executive governance? What was the purpose of such a massive attack on their own soil that couldn't have been done in another way that included less liability. Anything that they could have accomplished by destroying the towers could have been accomplished in another way if they were willing to go that far and had such a high ability to cover their tracks that they still haven't been revealed. If it was the CIA, and they were able to cover this up to such an extent, how is it that they would just "allow" people to solve the conspiract and be allowed to tell their story and live? If the CIA/NSA had such powers as people are claiming, wouldn't they have been able to stop people from discovering the truth?

What makes sense? A terrorist group, a group who has targetted US soil before, crashing planes into the WTC buildings and those buildings falling.

Any other explanation is a :tinfoil: argument, probably designed to make money or make someone famous. The government and the intelligence agencies proved how incompetent they were in allowing the attacks, do you really think that they have the competence to pull off something like this and not have it leaked?
well... after all this time, here is your leak!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-dCvKFO6iw

Kurt Sonnenfeld (born 1969) is a videographer for FEMA prior to 2002 and was one of four FEMA photographers who were given exclusive access to Ground Zero following the September 11 Attacks in New York in 2001. In addition to the photographs and video he took on behalf of FEMA, he is reputed and claims to have taken additional video footage as well as numerous photographs, some of them since published. He claims that these recorded images will provide evidence that the U.S. government had prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks.

Originally posted by wormser1971

You seriously can't be this stupid?!



He can and he is.

Originally posted by wormser1971
You disagreed with me saying that they should have used a specific analysis, until you found out it was a ruse, and that was actually what they used... then you changed it up and said, "that's what I meant".

You guys so badly want to believe what you were told that you will disagree with anything I say, even when it was what NIST said, which is the official story. I could just hug you all, cuz I feel so bad for you.

No, that's not what I said.

It's OK though. You clearly like to comprehend things your own way.

You conveniently cherry pick quotes and I pick out a disagreement I had with it... which stated they used static analysis. All I stated was it's not enough and that dynamic is much more accurate considering there were elements not considered in the analysis. However, if something fails under static loading (which it did in their analysis), it's going to fail under dynamic loading. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Dynamic analysis is static analysis with dynamic lateral loading as well.

<3

uggh, the thread that won't die.

Yes, you are tin-foil hat wearing (and gullible) conspiracy theorist. However, note I don't use the word 'paranoid'. I think you have every reason to be suspicious of government. Ours, and otherwise.

Originally posted by Gnosis
He can and he is.


^ ^ This guy has yet to post an original thought and he is calling others stupid. Truly comedic stuff. I mean Gnosis believes that remote controlled Air Force planes that had 'pods' on them hit the WTC buildings and then the WTC buildings were demoed. Can't get much dumber than that.

Originally posted by wormser1971
Witnesses to the explosions
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html

You are still making the assumption that 100% of these are wrong/lies.... Just an easy way to ignore evidence, I guess

Where are the EYE witnesses to the bombs going off? So far all you have provided is people that said they heard explosions. There are a lot of 'it seemed like' and 'it was like'. I also see a lot of firefighters describing what they saw from outside the tower, saying that the collapse began on a floor lower than the fire. Of course we can all re-watch the collapses of the building and see where they collapsed from.

Also as can be seen from this video inside the towers when they collapsed there weren't bombs going off in the basement. The scenario of demolition you describe is impossible because detonations would have to have occurred at the same level that the planes hit and not above it. No type of demolition device could have survived the plane crashes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xYjoSvzWeo

Originally posted by wormser1971
You really are stupid. Plain and simply, an uneducated buffoon trying to argue points that science cannot back up. A fireball traveled more than 900 feet. Through several elevator shafts, (there are only 3 that serviced those areas, so it was a very opportunistic fireball) without fuel, because as stated by you earlier, the fuel was burning the materials to weaken metal on the 90th floor. So now, 10k gallons of fuel is burning up office materials, weakening steel, not losing any of itself on the fireball that shot out of the building at the impact zone, traveling down 900 feet of elevator shaft in only a couple of elevators, while missing all of the other elevators (otherwise it was replicating the fuel and creating more jet fuel, which would be fun).

One floor of the WTC towers is equivalent to one acre.
Here is a picture of a 10k gallon tank http://johnsonlumberllc.com/index.php/used-equipment/johnson-lumber-equipment-for-sale-158/

I have shown you the math on how much surface area that much fuel covers, and demonstrated that it would be 1/10th of an inch deep on the floor

here is a ruler http://www.wikihow.com/Read-a-Ruler and instructions on how to read it

There is no possible way that fuel could have traveled that far without burning before it got there. Fireballs need fuel. Without fuel, there is no fireball. Try using a lighter with no fuel. Fire is not a solid mass. It goes out when there is nothing left to burn.

You seriously can't be this stupid?!



You are the stupid one as you are the one arguing that there was some kind of huge demolition CT going on at the same time the planes hit. The truth is that the elevators were a huge disaster during the 9/11 attacks. Multiple elevators were rendered useless because they had been structurally compromised by the plane crash. Some elevators came crashing down to the bottom of the building after their cables and breaking systems were cut by debris from the plane. Multiple people were burned alive in elevators during the crash and yes fire shot down the elevator shafts due to multiple reasons. Read up on it a bit before you dismiss things or start to call others stupid.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

"But the elevator shafts also became the circulation system of the disaster, carrying death and destruction throughout the towers.
Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts."

Also the thing that no CT'er wants to touch on is that demolition explosives don't produce a significant amount of flame. They aren't fuel type explosions you see in the movies. If somebody came out with shrapnel wounds then that would indicate a demolition charge may have gone off, however if they are coming out with burn wounds that means they were near an explosion caused by a fuel source. Someone standing close enough to a demo charge to get burned would be blown apart in the process. Continue believing in make believe BS though, you are only wasting your own lives.

"There is endless photographic evidence" *links zero photographs*

Originally posted by baumusc
You are the stupid one as you are the one arguing that there was some kind of huge demolition CT going on at the same time the planes hit. The truth is that the elevators were a huge disaster during the 9/11 attacks. Multiple elevators were rendered useless because they had been structurally compromised by the plane crash. Some elevators came crashing down to the bottom of the building after their cables and breaking systems were cut by debris from the plane. Multiple people were burned alive in elevators during the crash and yes fire shot down the elevator shafts due to multiple reasons. Read up on it a bit before you dismiss things or start to call others stupid.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

"But the elevator shafts also became the circulation system of the disaster, carrying death and destruction throughout the towers.
Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts."

Also the thing that no CT'er wants to touch on is that demolition explosives don't produce a significant amount of flame. They aren't fuel type explosions you see in the movies. If somebody came out with shrapnel wounds then that would indicate a demolition charge may have gone off, however if they are coming out with burn wounds that means they were near an explosion caused by a fuel source. Someone standing close enough to a demo charge to get burned would be blown apart in the process. Continue believing in make believe BS though, you are only wasting your own lives.
First point... Here is the elevator layout

http://911encyclopedia.com/wiki/index.php/World_Trade_Center_Elevators

Top sky lobby is at the 78th floor. That's where the express elevators go to. That is 14 floors below the impact in one tower. That means that only 1 elevator went to the lobby in that building that could have had any fire travel through.
The next sky lobby is far below that. What was the purpose of the sky lobbies? To prevent fire from spreading. Now, the magical fireball got out of one elevator and took another? Did it push the button, or did some kind person do it for the fire?

The other building had the lowest part of the impact at floor 78. That works for the express elevators, of which there were 2, plus the service elevator. So in that one building it is possible, however it would require fire to travel down, instead of up... Ever had a first grade science class, genius?

Second point. Really? The fire went up and down and side to side, yet created a massive fireball at impact, melted steel columns on the other side of the building from the impact region, ignited fires on 4 floors, and still exploded in fireballs in the lobby... exactly how much fuel do you think there was? 10k gallons is not that much in relation to that size building. In order for that to happen, fuel had to fall, un-ignited all the way down to the lobby, through the elevator shaft, unobstructed and unimpeded, then had to ignite when it got there and not before. You really can't believe that?

Again, here is a 10k fuel tank
http://johnsonlumberllc.com/index.php/used-equipment/johnson-lumber-equipment-for-sale-158/

You have got to be kidding? Fire goes up.That really confuses you?

Anyone else want to tell me that fire/heat/smoke travel down? Go to this physics forum and tell them how fire goes down instead of up
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=13878
Fire goes up. Ask a 5 year old.

Here...l watch the impact video and watch how the fireball goes up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrN00_450s0 :45 seconds is the impact... fireball goes where it is supposed to. UP!

Yes... I can call you stupid if you believe that the fireball went down and side to side. It's the reason you don't see fires at the 44th floor. My niece is in first grade, and she gets it. FIRE GOES UP! How in the hell did it go side to side through the elevators? Look at the blue prints FFS.

In conclusion... FIRE GOES UP, STUPID!

I'm actually finding this more compelling than all the scientific mental masturbation going on.

https://sites.google.com/site/911stories/insidethesouthtower%3Aeyewitnessaccounts

Originally posted by wormser1971

Yes... I can call you stupid if you believe that the fireball went down and side to side. It's the reason you don't see fires at the 44th floor. My niece is in first grade, and she gets it. FIRE GOES UP! How in the hell did it go side to side through the elevators? Look at the blue prints FFS.

In conclusion... FIRE GOES UP, STUPID!




Lol, you are either off your rocker or just trolling. You are arguing like your niece, at a 1st grade level. Fire goes in the direction of the greatest oxygen and fuel supply. Since jet fuel is a liquid and heavier than air, gravity pulls it down in its liquid state where it would ignite. Elevator chutes acted like a vacuum.

78th floor
Kelly Reyher, AON Corporation: The elevator split at the seams, the floor blew up. You could just sort of look right through the corner of the elevator into the elevator shaft and it was just all fire.
So I was able to crawl out. And then when I crawled out you just saw an absolute scene of destruction. Across from me, because when you crawl out you're facing the other elevator bank, they were completely destroyed. There was fire just shooting out those. "Accounts From the South Tower" The New York Times, May 26, 2002

78th floor
Ling Young said she believes she was the last person to escape the tower before it collapsed. She was trying to save her boss, who had suffered a broken leg in the attack.
Young said she was waiting to take an elevator down. When the doors opened, a fireball incinerated several people waiting to get on. She finally made her way to the stairs and out of the building.

77th floor or near
Keat Crown: ...reached a point in the stairwell that had been demolished by an elevator, he jumped down an unknown distance and was able to land with only minor injuries where the stairwell was still useable. At that point, he made his way to the bottom of the building and emerged only minutes before the structure...."

Dittmar later would learn that a plane also had crashed into the south tower.
"We immediately smelled the jet fuel," Dittmar said. "And we felt one ball of heat, one ball of heat that just went blowing by us faster than I could say it."http://www.wtceskp.com/uploads/Kane%20County%20Chronicle%209-7-03.doc
Near 70th floor, Arthur Delbianco

70th floor, Clyde Ebanks: "I think now, these popping sounds were coming out of the elevator shafts because of the fireball that was coming down. The popping sounds, I think, were the elevator doors opening up because of the fireball." (Richard Bernstein: Out of the Blue. New York: Times Books, 2002. p. 222)

25th floor
Eric S. Levine: Somewhere around the 25th floor, we began to smell jet fuel and a lot of it. I have asthma and it began to become a little difficult to breathe but by the 15th floor it became unbearable due to the amount of smoke that was now entering the stairwell. (Smelling Jet Fuel all the way down to the 25th floor)

South Tower lobby
The doors parted, but the elevator had become stuck just as the bottom of the cab was reaching the lobby of the south tower. Only the feet of the trapped passengers were visible as the burning jet fuel that had cascaded down the shaft ahead of them threatened to broil them alive. (Jet Fuel made it down to the lobby according to firefighters on the scene)

South Tower lobby
Firefighter Timothy Brown: "We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel. People were screaming in the elevator. They were getting smoked and cooked. There weren't a lot of firemen there at the time. I grabbed some of the Port Authority employees and asked them where the fire extinguishers were and told them to get as many fire extinguishers as they could so we could try and fight this fire. As they were doing that, firemen started showing up, and I started asking them to get big cans, let's try to put this fire out."

So yeah, just keep on ignoring evidence from people in elevators or near them during the plane crash. Fire always goes up, what an idiotic statement. Fire goes where the fuel goes.

Also just for Gnosis, proof that it was an American airliner that crashed into one of the buildings and not a remote controlled Air Force plane. You guys make things too easy to refute.

"She Was On The 92nd floor of the World Trade Center” by Josh Gilbert
"... my neighbor Jennifer's story.... Jennifer was on the 92nd floor of 2 World Trade Center on Tuesday morning. She looked out her window and saw a plane flying low and directly toward the building.

""That plane is flying too low," she said.

"No one seemed to notice. "That plane is flying too low," she repeated, adding, "And it's flying right at us."

"people started paying attention and watched in mounting horror as the American eagle plane flew close enough to their building for them to read the letters on the side of the plane. Suddenly, at the last moment, it veered and smashed into the tower next to them.

""They heard a loud, thundering explosion and heard the whoosh of air sucked in by the vacuum. Smoke and flames shot out all around them outside their windows. Chaos ensued. People started screaming and running toward the stairwell.