Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Deathblade
To be honest, I already believe it helps with fakes.

As for breaking tackles...I'm not sure.

I've also suggested making fakes, or similar happen when an HB cuts or changes direction...which would simulate the whole "running to make it hard to tackle", since it would fake out players, or make them lose balance, or something to make changing direction worthwhile.

Originally posted by bhall43
i thought bort just specifically said earlier that the vision made them run all over the place because they could see the entire field.

I think he means that confidence actually made them successful...since they were breaking tackles, causing hundreds of fumbles, causing entire teams to fall down, etc etc....while they ran around in circles on the field.

Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by tautology

I don't think it is unreasonable to keep elusive (especially super elusive) pathing the way it is, but allow vision to substantially increase your ability to break tackles and make fakes.

To be honest, I already believe it helps with fakes.

As for breaking tackles...I'm not sure.

Vision = How well does this RB see the field around him? Vision will help your RB find better cutback lanes, avoid tacklers, pick up blitzers when blocking, catch incoming passes, and use fake abilities such as head fake and juke more effectively.

Originally posted by Deathblade
To be honest, I already believe it helps with fakes.

As for breaking tackles...I'm not sure.

It definitely helps with fakes, and it does help a bit with breaking tackles (activating SAs primarily I think)...just not very much. Not enough to be worth it, frankly.

Originally posted by Deathblade

Really, I think there is something wrong with Bort's vector calculation. I mean, if there's 2 defenders coming at you from two directions...what kind of calculation would make you alternate 90 degree angles between them? The logical "angle" would be calculating their vectors and running between it, rather than alternating between running straight at defender A, and straight at defender B.

Ding Ding. This is it.

This almost reminds me of that Pierre thomas Weight gate scandal, where we needed a speed script multiple open builds, and like the entire community screaming from the roof tops, before anything was done . Like I can almost bet if you say this to bort, he will be like. "Gosh darnit I think you're right"

I think the simple calculation would be to have vision react in almost a "which defender is more easily faked" type of situation, and go at that guy, and then try and fake using his carry, So not a carrying 2, but rather have vision determine where he would go, and have it be FAST. Not like it is now, but to some degree allows the rb to change direction with 0 speed loss, when looking for who to fake?

I think we are all in agreement that vision and agility should be much more important and that pathing needs to be improved.(doing so would help make them more important)

Originally posted by jrry32
I think we are all in agreement that vision and agility should be much more important and that pathing needs to be improved.(doing so would help make them more important)

Agreed on Vision. Vision is something a lot of people AVOID in their build plan. That is a problem. It needs to be fixed.

Originally posted by David Stern
Originally posted by Deathblade


Really, I think there is something wrong with Bort's vector calculation. I mean, if there's 2 defenders coming at you from two directions...what kind of calculation would make you alternate 90 degree angles between them? The logical "angle" would be calculating their vectors and running between it, rather than alternating between running straight at defender A, and straight at defender B.

Ding Ding. This is it.

This almost reminds me of that Pierre thomas Weight gate scandal, where we needed a speed script multiple open builds, and like the entire community screaming from the roof tops, before anything was done . Like I can almost bet if you say this to bort, he will be like. "Gosh darnit I think you're right"

I think the simple calculation would be to have vision react in almost a "which defender is more easily faked" type of situation, and go at that guy, and then try and fake using his carry, So not a carrying 2, but rather have vision determine where he would go, and have it be FAST. Not like it is now, but to some degree allows the rb to change direction with 0 speed loss, when looking for who to fake?

Yes, another option could be if there was no good path to go through, the RB could stop in his tracks then use first step and quick cut to start again and cut towards the path of least resistance like NFL RBs will do at times when they have two guys coming at them from the side. The higher the vision, the better decision they make so an 80 vision RB could be pretty deadly because of how good he would be at finding ways to get around players. Emmit Smith's and Marshall Faulk's best attributes as a runner were their vision.

Originally posted by David Stern
Originally posted by Deathblade


Really, I think there is something wrong with Bort's vector calculation. I mean, if there's 2 defenders coming at you from two directions...what kind of calculation would make you alternate 90 degree angles between them? The logical "angle" would be calculating their vectors and running between it, rather than alternating between running straight at defender A, and straight at defender B.

Ding Ding. This is it.

This almost reminds me of that Pierre thomas Weight gate scandal, where we needed a speed script multiple open builds, and like the entire community screaming from the roof tops, before anything was done . Like I can almost bet if you say this to bort, he will be like. "Gosh darnit I think you're right"

I think the simple calculation would be to have vision react in almost a "which defender is more easily faked" type of situation, and go at that guy, and then try and fake using his carry, So not a carrying 2, but rather have vision determine where he would go, and have it be FAST. Not like it is now, but to some degree allows the rb to change direction with 0 speed loss, when looking for who to fake?

Sounds like we have something that should be taken to the Oracle for review.

Originally posted by Deathblade
I think he means that confidence actually made them successful...since they were breaking tackles, causing hundreds of fumbles, causing entire teams to fall down, etc etc....while they ran around in circles on the field.

gotcha.

Originally posted by jrry32
I think we are all in agreement that vision and agility should be much more important and that pathing needs to be improved.(doing so would help make them more important)

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I don't even have any high vision/agility hb guys on any of the teams I over see any more. Like literally they have all been weeded out due to being terrible.


Originally posted by jrry32
Emmit Smith's best attributes as a runner was Larry Allen

FYP

Originally posted by Deathblade
It's not that vision doesn't have an effect, or that it's scaled too far out (to accommodate 150 vision players)...it's that the "best" path...isn't.

Otherwise, if vision was scaled too far, or had no effect...it wouldn't actually hurt you. However, it does actually hurt you when you go up to 70+. You get dancing that you don't with low vision.

Really, I think there is something wrong with Bort's vector calculation. I mean, if there's 2 defenders coming at you from two directions...what kind of calculation would make you alternate 90 degree angles between them? The logical "angle" would be calculating their vectors and running between it, rather than alternating between running straight at defender A, and straight at defender B.


The alternating is a "dance" that looks to me like an oscillator...the defenders engage in it too. They form some sort of closed loop system with no escape possible.

If there is only one defender there is no problem, but two defenders creates a closed loop.

Originally posted by jrry32
Yes, another option could be if there was no good path to go through, the RB could stop in his tracks then use first step and quick cut to start again and cut towards the path of least resistance like NFL RBs will do at times when they have two guys coming at them from the side. The higher the vision, the better decision they make so an 80 vision RB could be pretty deadly because of how good he would be at finding ways to get around players. Emmit Smith's and Marshall Faulk's best attributes as a runner were their vision.

I agree there too. Tackle avoidance - path of least resistance is the biggest thing that Vision should key in on. And it should also help with firing of SA's like Quick Cut, Head Fake, Juke, Spin (which I believe it only helps fire fakes atm??)

Originally posted by tautology

The alternating is a "dance" that looks to me like an oscillator...the defenders engage in it too. They form some sort of closed loop system with no escape possible.

If there is only one defender there is no problem, but two defenders creates a closed loop.



Actually the sideline can act like a defender for this purpose as well

Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by David Stern

I just don't think he is capable of fixing the pathing issue. Something must clearly be holding it up, or it would already be fixed by now.
Take wr's for example, they essentially pass or fail a vision check based on whatever number of vision they have. Say 50 vis = passing vision check most of the time. I am 100% ok with that, but once that wr goes over that 50 vision shouldn't he be able to do things other than pass/fail- - as his vision keeps going higher? You know what I am saying? It shouldn't just be pass/fail. There should be some kind of modifier to make vision a more integral part of the game. IDK what it would be, but I have always felt like at a high enough vision players should be doing "Awesome " things, not just always passing a check...

And that's the point of vision for HB's, or what it is supposed to be anyway.

Making awesome cutbacks, and cutting up the defense. I mean, at lowish levels, you can actually see it with high vision HB's. My low level HB was pretty damn cool when he was low level with only capped speed and 70 vision. Making all kinds of cutbacks. As the defense's speed climbed, the HB's "awesomeness" turned into "wtf is he doing?" that most people experience with high elusive settings and high vision.

So honestly, I'm thinking that the "good pathing" may already be there, it's just thrown off by faster defenders or something.

Making outmatched defenders lose some balance could also go a long way towards this right? Or am I wrong here. Seems to me that since defenders do not, it attributes to making those awesome cutbacks and cutting up the defense very ineffective.