Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt
We're in traffic trying to get home after a long day of work... We get a flat. Shit. That sucks. Throw on the spare to get you back on the road so you can at least get home. Replace the spare when you have either the time or money to put a legit tire back on the car.

Vision = Carrying2 = Spare tire = Getting you back on course or home.

Fixing Pathing = Replacing the tire.

Right now we just want to get home after a long days work. You can replace the tire when you have the time or money to do it. :/

And people have the nerve to complain about bandaid fixes >_>

Originally posted by Deathblade
Unlike most of the mouth breathers on this forum, I actually try to describe what's wrong, and come up with solutions rather than scream "fix <problem>"

I just don't think he is capable of fixing the pathing issue. Something must clearly be holding it up, or it would already be fixed by now.
Take wr's for example, they essentially pass or fail a vision check based on whatever number of vision they have. Say 50 vis = passing vision check most of the time. I am 100% ok with that, but once that wr goes over that 50 vision shouldn't he be able to do things other than pass/fail- - as his vision keeps going higher? You know what I am saying? It shouldn't just be pass/fail. There should be some kind of modifier to make vision a more integral part of the game. IDK what it would be, but I have always felt like at a high enough vision players should be doing "Awesome " things, not just always passing a check...

Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt

We're in traffic trying to get home after a long day of work... We get a flat. Shit. That sucks. Throw on the spare to get you back on the road so you can at least get home. Replace the spare when you have either the time or money to put a legit tire back on the car.

Vision = Carrying2 = Spare tire = Getting you back on course or home.

Fixing Pathing = Replacing the tire.

Right now we just want to get home after a long days work. You can replace the tire when you have the time or money to do it. :/

And people have the nerve to complain about bandaid fixes >_>
Half the updates in the change log are band aids. Who are you kidding?

Originally posted by Jack Del Rio
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=982819&pbp_id=13018282

that was fucking awesome. Wow. rofl

Originally posted by David Stern
I just don't think he is capable of fixing the pathing issue. Something must clearly be holding it up, or it would already be fixed by now.
Take wr's for example, they essentially pass or fail a vision check based on whatever number of vision they have. Say 50 vis = passing vision check most of the time. I am 100% ok with that, but once that wr goes over that 50 vision shouldn't he be able to do things other than pass/fail- - as his vision keeps going higher? You know what I am saying? It shouldn't just be pass/fail. There should be some kind of modifier to make vision a more integral part of the game. IDK what it would be, but I have always felt like at a high enough vision players should be doing "Awesome " things, not just always passing a check...

And that's the point of vision for HB's, or what it is supposed to be anyway.

Making awesome cutbacks, and cutting up the defense. I mean, at lowish levels, you can actually see it with high vision HB's. My low level HB was pretty damn cool when he was low level with only capped speed and 70 vision. Making all kinds of cutbacks. As the defense's speed climbed, the HB's "awesomeness" turned into "wtf is he doing?" that most people experience with high elusive settings and high vision.

So honestly, I'm thinking that the "good pathing" may already be there, it's just thrown off by faster defenders or something.

Originally posted by Jack Del Rio
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=982819&pbp_id=13018282

That is Barry Sanders type stuff......Tea is the exception, not the rule.

Originally posted by Jack Del Rio
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=982819&pbp_id=13018282

Nerf bat.

Originally posted by Deathblade
And that's the point of vision for HB's, or what it is supposed to be anyway.

Making awesome cutbacks, and cutting up the defense. I mean, at lowish levels, you can actually see it with high vision HB's. My low level HB was pretty damn cool when he was low level with only capped speed and 70 vision. Making all kinds of cutbacks. As the defense's speed climbed, the HB's "awesomeness" turned into "wtf is he doing?" that most people experience with high elusive settings and high vision.

So honestly, I'm thinking that the "good pathing" may already be there, it's just thrown off by faster defenders or something.

I think it got thrown off by the va's from special teamer/return man/mentor/ 73 vision return man. I mean lets assume bort had to balance the sim for these super vision guys returning the kick, then when our hb's are playing vs 77 vision fs/ss/lb'ers, their vision would essentially be shit right? I mean how do I put this....... If he balanced how vision works for kr/pr guys, then basically unless you have like 120 vision, you aren't really going to be that effective. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by David Stern
Originally posted by Deathblade

And that's the point of vision for HB's, or what it is supposed to be anyway.

Making awesome cutbacks, and cutting up the defense. I mean, at lowish levels, you can actually see it with high vision HB's. My low level HB was pretty damn cool when he was low level with only capped speed and 70 vision. Making all kinds of cutbacks. As the defense's speed climbed, the HB's "awesomeness" turned into "wtf is he doing?" that most people experience with high elusive settings and high vision.

So honestly, I'm thinking that the "good pathing" may already be there, it's just thrown off by faster defenders or something.

I think it got thrown off by the va's from special teamer/return man/mentor/ 73 vision return man. I mean lets assume bort had to balance the sim for these super vision guys returning the kick, then when our hb's are playing vs 77 vision fs/ss/lb'ers, their vision would essentially be shit right? I mean how do I put this....... If he balanced how vision works for kr/pr guys, then basically unless you have like 120 vision, you aren't really going to be that effective. Does that make sense?

Yes it makes perfect sense. But he didn't nerf guys with 73 vision. He nerfed Mentor which was giving a guy like 300 vision.

Originally posted by David Stern
I think it got thrown off by the va's from special teamer/return man/mentor/ 73 vision return man. I mean lets assume bort had to balance the sim for these super vision guys returning the kick, then when our hb's are playing vs 77 agility fs/ss/lb'ers, their vision would essentially be shit right? I mean how do I put this....... If he balanced how vision works for kr/pr guys, then basically unless you have like 120 vision, you aren't really going to be that effective. Does that make sense?

It's not that vision doesn't have an effect, or that it's scaled too far out (to accommodate 150 vision players)...it's that the "best" path...isn't.

Otherwise, if vision was scaled too far, or had no effect...it wouldn't actually hurt you. However, it does actually hurt you when you go up to 70+. You get dancing that you don't with low vision.

Really, I think there is something wrong with Bort's vector calculation. I mean, if there's 2 defenders coming at you from two directions...what kind of calculation would make you alternate 90 degree angles between them? The logical "angle" would be calculating their vectors and running between it, rather than alternating between running straight at defender A, and straight at defender B.

Originally posted by Deathblade
Vision does serve a purpose.

It allows you to take the best path.

We should fix the fact that the best path isn't the best path, rather than just nuke the entire idea and make it Carrying2.


What is the essence of the elusive/high vision archetype though? It's not just finding the path through a maze, a lot of it is taking angles that *make it difficult* to tackle you.

I don't think it is unreasonable to keep elusive (especially super elusive) pathing the way it is, but allow vision to substantially increase your ability to break tackles and make fakes only when using elusive/super elusive

The fact that you will be stutter stepping keeps it in balance, especially since your low speed/momentum greatly reduces your ability to break tackles already.

The "find a path through defenders that I can cut through with speed" setting already exists...it's called the power setting. Just look once for daylight and run fast as hell.


I am generally against work arounds like this, but I think the pathing problem is fundamentally very complicated and the above might actually have a desirable look and feel to it.

Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt
Yes it makes perfect sense. But he didn't nerf guys with 73 vision. He nerfed Mentor which was giving a guy like 300 vision.

I don't mean mentor, Bc the high vision guys were still running into people, it was that super amount of confidence that was making those return guys go all over the place.

What I meant was, a 73 vision return man getting a 70% bonus is basically a 123 vision player on every play. So if 70 vision on a hb was enough to be making nice moves, what the hell would 123 vision do from all the stacked bonuses, when a kr is returning kicks.

Originally posted by tautology
I don't think it is unreasonable to keep elusive (especially super elusive) pathing the way it is, but allow vision to substantially increase your ability to break tackles and make fakes.

To be honest, I already believe it helps with fakes.

As for breaking tackles...I'm not sure.

Originally posted by David Stern
I don't mean mentor, Bc the high vision guys were still running into people, it was that super amount of confidence that was making those return guys go all over the place.
.

i thought bort just specifically said earlier that the vision made them run all over the place because they could see the entire field.