Warrior General Games

Screw it, to save time consider this. In the 1940's, about 33% of all workers were employed in production of some sort including assembly, manufacturing, factory work and that number is currently sitting at around 6%.

Conversely, other less developed countries have seen those numbers greatly increase as we add more health workers and educators, therapists.

To put it incredibly simple, when you have more money, you buy more shit. The people that benefit from that are people that produce the shit. We have a fraction of the number of people who produce shit, we will not see a fraction of the gain that we did in the past because of that fact.

Instead of compounding those problems and making it even less appealing to increase shit production, we need to bring back shit producers.

Originally posted by glbisthewaytobe
Minimum wage is supposed to be a liveable wage. Do you not learn history? Or do you just make shit up? Read what fdr (the president who enacted minimum wage laws) said about them.

If you lived the same lifestyle as someone in 1938, minimum wage is probably just fine.

The problem is, the world has changed since 1938.

Originally posted by Cowpoker
Screw it, to save time consider this. In the 1940's, about 33% of all workers were employed in production of some sort including assembly, manufacturing, factory work and that number is currently sitting at around 6%.

Conversely, other less developed countries have seen those numbers greatly increase as we add more health workers and educators, therapists.

To put it incredibly simple, when you have more money, you buy more shit. The people that benefit from that are people that produce the shit. We have a fraction of the number of people who produce shit, we will not see a fraction of the gain that we did in the past because of that fact.

Instead of compounding those problems and making it even less appealing to increase shit production, we need to bring back shit producers.

It isn't because we have more people in education or healthcare, it's because businesses got greedy and no longer wanted to wait for the money to funnel to them, so they lobbied the government for free trade agreements to ship our manufacturing jobs overseas to places with minimal employee protection laws.

Now though, most of our jobs are service based (food service, retail, auto repair, etc) you can't ship those jobs anywhere. And for the most part they pay shit. We subsidize the fuck out of Wal mart employees, not because they can't afford it (because they can, and if you want to argue that just google the take home income of the waltons), but because they don't want to pay people a living wage. And why should they? We don't make them. It's way easier to pay a shitty wage and hand out state assistance programs packets to your employees.

Originally posted by Cowpoker
Screw it, to save time consider this. In the 1940's, about 33% of all workers were employed in production of some sort including assembly, manufacturing, factory work and that number is currently sitting at around 6%.

Conversely, other less developed countries have seen those numbers greatly increase as we add more health workers and educators, therapists.

To put it incredibly simple, when you have more money, you buy more shit. The people that benefit from that are people that produce the shit. We have a fraction of the number of people who produce shit, we will not see a fraction of the gain that we did in the past because of that fact.

Instead of compounding those problems and making it even less appealing to increase shit production, we need to bring back shit producers.

I knew the numbers would be bad. Didn't realize that bad.

This is a major problem that I have been talking about for years.

Originally posted by Cowpoker
If you lived the same lifestyle as someone in 1938, minimum wage is probably just fine.

The problem is, the world has changed since 1938.

Minimum wage is about purchase power. How do you not get that. It's good for everyone to increase the largest portion of the populations purchase power. Then they can buy more shit. Which you agree is good for everyone.

Originally posted by glbisthewaytobe
Minimum wage is about purchase power. How do you not get that. It's good for everyone to increase the largest portion of the populations purchase power. Then they can buy more shit. Which you agree is good for everyone.

The first problem is that is not what I am saying, I am saying that buying more shit helps a smaller percentage of the population then it has at any point in our history.

Minimum wage is an issue and believe it or not, I actually support minimum wage increases and they should have happened almost yearly since the late 1980's. Just for shits and giggles, I looked up the median wage for all employees in my state and it currently sits at $18 and change and we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Pushing minimum wage can speed up the maturation process from fly by night occupations and businesses to more sustainable, more valuable industries and occupations but don't get misled about what it will accomplish and who it will benefit.

I think you need to understand what purchase power means first. Are you planning to add 2x the amount of social assistance at the same time you boost min. wage because if you are not, you are effectively cutting the purchase power of people currently unemployed and relying on assistance in half and that number is about half of the US population. You will also need to 2x the amount of SS for people who are retired and rely on SS to live because you will be decreasing their purchasing power as well, no idea what the % of the population that applies to but we are already hurting more then half of the US population.

Originally posted by Cowpoker
The first problem is that is not what I am saying, I am saying that buying more shit helps a smaller percentage of the population then it has at any point in our history.

Minimum wage is an issue and believe it or not, I actually support minimum wage increases and they should have happened almost yearly since the late 1980's. Just for shits and giggles, I looked up the median wage for all employees in my state and it currently sits at $18 and change and we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Pushing minimum wage can speed up the maturation process from fly by night occupations and businesses to more sustainable, more valuable industries and occupations but don't get misled about what it will accomplish and who it will benefit.

I think you need to understand what purchase power means first. Are you planning to add 2x the amount of social assistance at the same time you boost min. wage because if you are not, you are effectively cutting the purchase power of people currently unemployed and relying on assistance in half and that number is about half of the US population. You will also need to 2x the amount of SS for people who are retired and rely on SS to live because you will be decreasing their purchasing power as well, no idea what the % of the population that applies to but we are already hurting more then half of the US population.

Less people will be unemployed because businesses will need to hire people to keep up with increased demand from the largest portion of the population having more money and using more services and buying more goods. Again, this happens literally every time we raise minimum wage.

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
Originally posted by glbisthewaytobe

Less people will be unemployed because....



So you don't know how supply and demand works. Cool.

Originally posted by glbisthewaytobe
It isn't because we have more people in education or healthcare, it's because businesses got greedy and no longer wanted to wait for the money to funnel to them, so they lobbied the government for free trade agreements to ship our manufacturing jobs overseas to places with minimal employee protection laws.

Now though, most of our jobs are service based (food service, retail, auto repair, etc) you can't ship those jobs anywhere. And for the most part they pay shit. We subsidize the fuck out of Wal mart employees, not because they can't afford it (because they can, and if you want to argue that just google the take home income of the waltons), but because they don't want to pay people a living wage. And why should they? We don't make them. It's way easier to pay a shitty wage and hand out state assistance programs packets to your employees.

Let me preface this by saying that I think it is a waste of my time to try and explain things to you, that's fine because I am stubborn as hell so I don't spite you for not wanting to change any opinions but I honestly think there are a fair number of people out there who have the same viewpoint that you do and by attempting to explain it to you, maybe they will reconsider a few of these half truth statements that seem to have gained popularity.

In the long run, losing low end manufacturing jobs may not be a bad thing. Many of those jobs would have eventually lost out to technology and new equipment advances anyway and we can focus on the engineering and management.

Don't pretend like the average American does not benefit greatly by foreign manufactured products. Do you have any idea what retail prices would be on vehicles, refrigerators.........if companies could not buy cheaper parts and hire cheap labor ? It is also not a bad thing that people living in a mud hut now have a little money. The middle class is expanding in many countries and it is creating a huge market of consumers that did not exist before. The biggest advantage the US has is that we can produce energy, we can produce food and both of those things will be in higher demand over the next several decades and now, there is money there to purchase those goods. Hell, Corn and Oil were about the only things holding this country together in the recession.

Walmart exist and excels (maybe not lately) because they have a low cost of operation. For some strange reason, other retailers like Target, who pays similar wages, was insulated from the scrutiny but they have also been closing stores because margins and trends swing up and down. When things are going well, anyone can thrive, when they slow down the only one that remains is the one that has the lower cost of operations/production. Its a good personal lesson as well, don't immediately raise your level of lifestyle or buy a bigger house, nicer car if you get a raise, create yourself a cushion or better yet, don't cash in those chips but put them to work to keep growing wealth.

Originally posted by glbisthewaytobe
Less people will be unemployed because businesses will need to hire people to keep up with increased demand from the largest portion of the population having more money and using more services and buying more goods. Again, this happens literally every time we raise minimum wage.

Again, in the post that you quoted, you will not be giving more money to the largest portion of the population because more then half of the US population is not full time employed.

Do you want to know what I think we should actually do?

Start by getting rid of individual state income taxes, cut every federal tax bracket in half(only personal income) and institute a sales tax on everything except grocered food items, clothing, water, and electricity. Then raise the federal minimum wage to $10/hour (which is what most of America can agree on as acceptable). Then, tie wages to payroll tax credits. So if you only pay minimum wage you pay the full amount of payroll tax, pay all your american employees more than minimum wage and see that payroll tax disappear. Then tie employee benefits to income tax. Give your american employees no benefits (paid vacation, sick leave, etc) pay the full income tax for your bracket. Have a lot of benefits you hand out to your american employees and see the income tax disappear. Then you marginally increase import taxes to the point where it evens out the cost of goods foreign or domestic.

We should tax people at the point of action. Not before they can be active in society. More people will be less burdened by a drastic cut in income taxes and be able to purchase more, and we will make more money through taxing every sale action that happens. That's why states that have marginal income taxes that are tempered with a sales tax run more smoothly and have more active state economies more often than not. It's only in places like California where they have both high income and sales taxes where it doesn't work.

Originally posted by carumba10
I knew the numbers would be bad. Didn't realize that bad.

This is a major problem that I have been talking about for years.

Its not all about increased regulations/worker protections/labor costs but those things did speed up the inevitable. I know in agriculture, with the addition of technology and larger and more advanced equipment, 1 person can do the work of 19-23 people could do in the 40's.

The tax code has an impact as well. If as a business owner, I need to employ 10 people to accomplish a task and my total cost (payroll tax, retirement, health, actual salary) is $50,000 each for a total of $500,000 every single year and made a 4% profit margin or $20,000 income on their work. I could buy a piece of equipment for 2.7 million dollars and finance that over 7 years for a little less then the $500,000 cost per year, still make my $20,000 of income and even if that piece of equipment depreciated in value at a quick rate, say 20% per year, after 7 years I still have a book value of $800,000 in the equipment.

If you are a business that has the capital, you can spend even more on the equipment to replace actual workers and you will be better off since equipment adds value to the balance sheet.

I don't know how to fix that or if it should be fixed. As a business, you created efficiencies which will impact prices and sustainability of your business and you also encouraged that business to invest money towards that equipment but you also have ten people who were previously employed who are out of jobs. I just think that those transitions were inevitable and tax credits for employees or other financial incentives to hire people are just temporary band aids and no solution.

Originally posted by glbisthewaytobe
So you don't know how supply and demand works. Cool.

Ironing alert!

Originally posted by Cowpoker
Its not all about increased regulations/worker protections/labor costs but those things did speed up the inevitable. I know in agriculture, with the addition of technology and larger and more advanced equipment, 1 person can do the work of 19-23 people could do in the 40's.

The tax code has an impact as well. If as a business owner, I need to employ 10 people to accomplish a task and my total cost (payroll tax, retirement, health, actual salary) is $50,000 each for a total of $500,000 every single year and made a 4% profit margin or $20,000 income on their work. I could buy a piece of equipment for 2.7 million dollars and finance that over 7 years for a little less then the $500,000 cost per year, still make my $20,000 of income and even if that piece of equipment depreciated in value at a quick rate, say 20% per year, after 7 years I still have a book value of $800,000 in the equipment.

If you are a business that has the capital, you can spend even more on the equipment to replace actual workers and you will be better off since equipment adds value to the balance sheet.

I don't know how to fix that or if it should be fixed. As a business, you created efficiencies which will impact prices and sustainability of your business and you also encouraged that business to invest money towards that equipment but you also have ten people who were previously employed who are out of jobs. I just think that those transitions were inevitable and tax credits for employees or other financial incentives to hire people are just temporary band aids and no solution.

I understand it isn't a simple problem or a one size fits all solution.

My local grocery store has the option of a self serve checkout. I won't use it. A McDonalds near me has just installed self serve kiosks. You order and pay with basically an atm machine. They bring your order out to you. I won't use that either.

Simple things like home maintenance or renovations. Good luck finding someone ...and if you actually do, cross your fingers and hope they are honest and do a good job.

Electricians, carpenters, plumbers, mechanics are all in demand. Yet the apprenticeship programs have been cut. Graduating high schoolers have no interest. They prefer their bachelor of Arts degree or some type of Human Resources job.