Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Corndog
So is the new meta to ignore conditioning on every player?

I think conditioning can't be ignored on all players and it's actually pretty important on HB, LB, FS, SS, and Fast WR's. You pretty routinely see middling to low conditioning for a lot of positions(OL, DL, FB, CB, Poss WR) with some positions needing next to nothing (QB, K, P).

The real issue is when you're completely out of breath the effect should be noticeably larger. I would love to see a system where energy penalties ramp up.

Normal Penalty (0 currently) would be moved to 30 energy.
Exaggerated Penalty (1.5x current) would start at 15 energy.
Painful Penalty (3x current) would be at 1 energy.

Morale could use a similar system, with an upper and lower effectiveness being adjusted.
50 - Normal
0 - 2x effect
100 - 1.5x effect

After those changes are made or in a package with those changes HB's should have a consecutive run penalty to stamina just like how there's consecutive play penalty. Maybe count plays where they're running the ball as a double play for consecutive plays.

I am way late to this party. Also very confused, I still push conditioning on most of my dots.

Sure the Kicker and Punter don't get much conditioning (I go 30ish).

but I am not sure who said a QB could have no conditioning. That shit is a complete lie, look at the top teams, their QB will always have 60+ conditioning. Of course, there is no argument on HB, LB, FS, SS about conditioning because it has been proven to be necessary to compete well. I know for a fact that the teams that keep winning Vet all get conditioning to 60 minimum on basically all dots. I have been a part of Myrik teams, Detriot Leos teams, my own teams, I have talked to Ghanima about his quite a bit, even Rob. and Sov. teams back in the day. All of us have always put 60+ conditioning on our dots. Sure we have noticed we don't need 90+ on all of our guys anymore but that is also due to the fact we get toughness higher on Lineman so their interactions do not drag down our conditioning.

Additionally, I have always noticed an improvement in the consistency of my dots when I have better conditioning. Sure a QB can make some throws tired, but he doesn't win the game, usually, he makes us lose the game until we get conditioning adequate enough.

If someone is saying conditioning does not matter then I want to see a team they build that has all dots 30 or less conditioning and toughness and show me how they are staying #1-3 in the tier every season all the way through vet. Until that, I am not seeing any evidence to prove that it is crap.

Morale, well it has its own ball of issues for sure. But I always put 30+ heart on all dots to just make sure it does not tank in a game. There simply is not enough SP in the game to do everything perfect.

Originally posted by dredgar
I am way late to this party. Also very confused, I still push conditioning on most of my dots.

Sure the Kicker and Punter don't get much conditioning (I go 30ish).

but I am not sure who said a QB could have no conditioning. That shit is a complete lie, look at the top teams, their QB will always have 60+ conditioning. Of course, there is no argument on HB, LB, FS, SS about conditioning because it has been proven to be necessary to compete well. I know for a fact that the teams that keep winning Vet all get conditioning to 60 minimum on basically all dots. I have been a part of Myrik teams, Detriot Leos teams, my own teams, I have talked to Ghanima about his quite a bit, even Rob. and Sov. teams back in the day. All of us have always put 60+ conditioning on our dots. Sure we have noticed we don't need 90+ on all of our guys anymore but that is also due to the fact we get toughness higher on Lineman so their interactions do not drag down our conditioning.

Additionally, I have always noticed an improvement in the consistency of my dots when I have better conditioning. Sure a QB can make some throws tired, but he doesn't win the game, usually, he makes us lose the game until we get conditioning adequate enough.

If someone is saying conditioning does not matter then I want to see a team they build that has all dots 30 or less conditioning and toughness and show me how they are staying #1-3 in the tier every season all the way through vet. Until that, I am not seeing any evidence to prove that it is crap.

Morale, well it has its own ball of issues for sure. But I always put 30+ heart on all dots to just make sure it does not tank in a game. There simply is not enough SP in the game to do everything perfect.

I'll try and break this down, your post is kind of a jam everything together and try to parse it out.

"Sure the Kicker and Punter don't get much conditioning (I go 30ish)." Getting to 25 is enough for both of those positions. No reason to have any points in stamina at build start. And yeah.. No real reason to put points there for these.

QB Conditioning. I think going over 60 is nuts, with the pass power changes now- pass power is a higher priority (which would reduce stamina lost per throw). I think realistically now you can get away with 45ish or potentially even less depending on what is being asked of the QB. If 60 is good for you and it would avoid this change; perfect. That's what we would want to accomplish. Going back to my original examples vs dream team
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/827444/123429 - 2 minutes left in the third quarter. This team should literally fall apart. Or here? https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/836411/533452

Players are not being punished for having extremely low conditioning or morale enough.

"Additionally, I have always noticed an improvement in the consistency of my dots when I have better conditioning. Sure a QB can make some throws tired, but he doesn't win the game, usually, he makes us lose the game until we get conditioning adequate enough. "

I've noticed the exact opposite for this. Stamina doesn't matter at all for a QB, especially if they have any investment in balance and footwork- Morale on the other hand does make a huge difference. I say this as someone who builds Defensive Linemen and watches every interaction of how the QB is throwing and not affected by having no stamina. *1.


"If someone is saying conditioning does not matter then I want to see a team they build that has all dots 30 or less conditioning and toughness and show me how they are staying #1-3 in the tier every season all the way through vet. Until that, I am not seeing any evidence to prove that it is crap."

--------> This isn't what's being said. <------------

I'm saying conditioning when bottomed out needs to have a larger negative impact.

HB's always are in that 75-100 conditioning range. Repeated abuse of full run or being the only HB should have some penalties attached to it (suggestion above)

LB, FS, SS will pretty much always have 80+ Conditioning.

QB's in the lower Conditioning/toughness ranges (sub 50 condi/40 toughness) should be punished for having no morale or stamina.

OL/DL can go to 60/60 and be fine for most games; Those games where it's not fine they should have a harder time then they do currently.


"Morale, well it has its own ball of issues for sure. But I always put 30+ heart on all dots to just make sure it does not tank in a game. There simply is not enough SP in the game to do everything perfect."

30 heart is nothing... I understand what you're saying with it and I do that too... But it's wrong and should not work.




Would anyone be happy if I said I don't put any points in balance and my player never fell or slowed down? No, you'd all tell me i'm full of shit. It's the same thing for lower levels of Heart and Conditioning. You can have lower amounts and have very little negative impact.





*1 Caveat to this is the break sack QB's. They rely much more heavily on conditioning for balance.

So low energy doesn't have much of an affect, but many positions pump conditioning to 80+ because...?

Like I'm really really confused what the argument is. I can't help but feel like this is a roundabout way to suggest some other change.

Originally posted by Corndog
So low energy doesn't have much of an affect, but many positions pump conditioning to 80+ because...?

Like I'm really really confused what the argument is. I can't help but feel like this is a roundabout way to suggest some other change.

DL nerf basically

Originally posted by Corndog
So low energy doesn't have much of an affect, but many positions pump conditioning to 80+ because...?

Like I'm really really confused what the argument is. I can't help but feel like this is a roundabout way to suggest some other change.

Okay so I feel I have a grasp of what Adder is saying now. He does tend to divert to other areas as well though.

What he is saying is not necessarily about player builds at all. His issue is that in the dream team example the entire offense stamina is less than 10, in theory, they should struggle to play at that point.

I will say in his play example the QB hit a WIDE open WR so it is a bad example. But I have seen what he is saying. ( the HB example just leave that alone because you will break the game if you dont for god sake.)

What adder is getting at is if a team morale or stamina has hit less than say 10 for example, then the dots should really be playing like dog shit because they are too tired to accomplish anything. At the same time Bo has a point, Pro players will be dead ass tired in a game and yet still make plays with will power alone.

He is wanting some type of negative affect to dots when they stamina drop below X number. Thus creating a larger need to continue to have either more rotating players or have higher conditioning the same we do for HB in the game. HB all have high conditioning so that they do not sufffer in their play ( that is exactly the way it should be so dont fuck that up please).

Originally posted by dredgar
Okay so I feel I have a grasp of what Adder is saying now. He does tend to divert to other areas as well though.

What he is saying is not necessarily about player builds at all. His issue is that in the dream team example the entire offense stamina is less than 10, in theory, they should struggle to play at that point.

I will say in his play example the QB hit a WIDE open WR so it is a bad example. But I have seen what he is saying. ( the HB example just leave that alone because you will break the game if you dont for god sake.)

What adder is getting at is if a team morale or stamina has hit less than say 10 for example, then the dots should really be playing like dog shit because they are too tired to accomplish anything. At the same time Bo has a point, Pro players will be dead ass tired in a game and yet still make plays with will power alone.

He is wanting some type of negative affect to dots when they stamina drop below X number. Thus creating a larger need to continue to have either more rotating players or have higher conditioning the same we do for HB in the game. HB all have high conditioning so that they do not sufffer in their play ( that is exactly the way it should be so dont fuck that up please).

"Pro players will be dead ass tired in a game and yet still make plays with will power alone." - One thing that I had originally thought about for this is have your morale be a type of 'willpower' save to being tired. Maybe negate the penalty down to the rate of what's normal now instead of the 1.5 or 3x penalty.


As for those plays I linked, it was more about the OL/DL and QB over the course of the game as opposed to one play.

To clarify, Tecmo Brady is only Jour, his cap is 80 conditioning and that's where he will be at Vet. But he's not there yet, so one would expect his energy to drain some. Though on the very first play all of his morale is gone. https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/836411/530710

The whole game he played like that. Threw 50% and 6 Ints, but again the defense ran one play all game long and left receivers wide open. Not sure what "penalty" there should be for wide open passes? Should he not be able to throw at all?

Originally posted by BoDiddley
To clarify, Tecmo Brady is only Jour, his cap is 80 conditioning and that's where he will be at Vet. But he's not there yet, so one would expect his energy to drain some. Though on the very first play all of his morale is gone. https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/836411/530710

The whole game he played like that. Threw 50% and 6 Ints, but again the defense ran one play all game long and left receivers wide open. Not sure what "penalty" there should be for wide open passes? Should he not be able to throw at all?

there should be MASSIVE penalties to running the same play all game

adding to that QB stamina drain should be less than it is

Originally posted by ThePh33P
there should be MASSIVE penalties to running the same play all game

adding to that QB stamina drain should be less than it is

I'm all for it on the 1st part - come to think of it the 2nd as well QB's drain energy after handoffs even when not in a block

Originally posted by ThePh33P
there should be MASSIVE penalties to running the same play all game

Sort of an inter-game version of play knowledge?

Makes sense. If a team is just running the same play over and over, the opposing team should be able to "adapt" to it.

Maybe limit how many times a play can be called in a game or half?

This thread is being hijacked. Back to conditioning. Either make it so the bar is more accurate to it's impacts on a players skill or increase the penalties for the bar being so low. Right now it's not really lining up.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that a QB loses 5-10 energy as soon as he takes the snap on a QB running play.

Originally posted by Corndog
So low energy doesn't have much of an affect, but many positions pump conditioning to 80+ because...?

Like I'm really really confused what the argument is. I can't help but feel like this is a roundabout way to suggest some other change.

I think we are pointing out that conditioning impacts different positions differently. For some posiitons it has nearly no impact for some positions it appears to have an overpowering effect.

Vipermaw started with pointing out 40+ carries and minimal conditioning effect for a HB (who may also be returning kicks) is a bit rediculous. It looks weird and really doesn't contribute to either game diversity or really make "real football" sense. 5 Guys smash into the back who never takes a break and keeps on trucking. The effect of all that hard work he's doing is really mooted both in play and in re-charge.

On the opposite side of the coin, QBs lose energy merely taking the snap, continue to lose energy after handing off even if basically just sitting there and stamina impacts them less but gets taxed more often on non-hitting plays.

Meanwhile inside your DT's can be totally taxed and the impact on play is minimal because the totally exhausted doesn't kick in.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting anything sneaky or to favor one position or style, or at least I'm not, other than re-look at the conditioning on some of the positions, even for a video game some of it doesn't make sense. A HB absorbing that sort of punishment on a regular basis (40 carries and kicks) ought to be totally done at the end of the game min in game breath just smoked ....meanwhile a QB who threw 35-40 passes didn't run and certainyl doesn't play special teams ought not to be tired. Likewise a NT who played 60 or 70 snaps got hit on all of them , covered special teams and has no conditioning left ought to be on roller skates backwards or downwards by the end of the game.