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Forum > Goal Line Blitz 2 > Vet Ladder Talk 5/24
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Originally posted by Galithor

In Xars case, his lower PA and lack of QR simply means it takes really, really high "I'm Open" scores for his lower progression targets to get selected by the QB. Which could be a good thing from an efficiency standpoint. The QB only messes with them when they're basically a sure bet. Otherwise, the QB is following progression rank and feeding Belgarion.


In that case, it should be fairly easy to sack him.
 
Galithor
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Here's how I've viewed the passing game and QB decision making. This is purely my own conjecture.

QB values recieving targets based on 3 criteria. They must have a value above some minimum threshold for the QB to be willing to unload a pass to avoid a sack. Once they cross some maximum threshold, the QB will immediately pass the ball to them for being such an overwhelmingly good target, even if unthreatened by the pass rush. The sum of the 3 scores is what matters for deciding when to throw to a target.

1. Progression Score: Initial starting target value for each receiver on a play.

2. Time Score: Integrating bonus to each receivers target value based on length of the play. Eventually the QB will throw to a target. Possibly modified by Quick Read SA.

3. Quality Score: Scaled score based on openess and play situation, such as needing a first down. This score can scale negative to positive. Probably where Pass Awareness impacts the game.

So there are 3 outcomes as the targets score changes throughout a play.

A: no targets reach minimum "unload pass to avoid a sack" score. Sack happens.

B: target gets to max value threshold, and QB will pass to them unforced.

C: one or multiple targets have value over "avoid sack" value, but not to "max value" when a pass rusher forces a pass. QB will throw to highest value target. A "hurry" dice roll is performed to see if the pass is impacted by a hurry.

Originally posted by Example Scenario

So let's say this is how a play works with some made up numbers as examples:

Start of the play (values) -
WR1 - 1st progression value of 50
WR2 - 2nd progression value of 40
WR3 - 3rd progression value of 30
TE - 4th progression value of 20
HB - 5th progression value of 10

Every tick, the score on each target increases by 1.

The "I'm open/a good target based on the situation" score can swing from -50 to +50, based on pass awareness.

Let's say you need to get to a minimum of 80 score on a target for a QB to be willing to unload a pass to avoid a sack. At 120 score though, the QB will immediately pass the ball unforced due to it being a max value target.

So we reach tick 30, and the pass rush is hounding your QB. Your QB would be willing to throw to WR1 (50 progression +30 time score = 80 unload throw to avoid sack score) but WR1 had a negative modifier from the quality score. However maybe WR2 is already up to a sweet +20 quality modifier, so they're available. QB unloads to WR2. If they'd been better covered or on a lower value route for the situation at tick 30, the QB would've instead eaten the sack.

Maybe there's no sack threat. And by tick 40, WR1 had nailed a head fake, and is wide open. The QB gives him a +30 "I'm open score". He's at 50(progression)+40(time)+30(quality) now, so 120 total target score, which is the "good target pass it now" score required for an unforced pass.



thoughts based on these assumptions:

- Quick Read SA has bothered me since Air Raid got to veteran 4 seasons ago. I used to think it probably tied into the Quality section of a target's score, but I kinda feel like it's more likely tied to the time score. So it doesn't necessarily help you find the best target, but it helps you get to a target sooner. I wouldn't be surprised if QR simply gives you a direct boost to the integrating time score on all targets, and this would explain much of my gnashing of teeth over Cleveland seemingly unloading passes prematurely all the time. gold QR was just pushing targets to the max value faster. Think about it. At gold quick read, if the system works like how I described above, that'd be a +3 score/tick for 15-30 ticks instead of +1 score/tick. If QR fired on tick 20, by tick 30 I'd have a progression + time score of 100 already instead of 80. By tick 40, progression + time score would be up to 130. The first progression would need lower than a -10 quality score for me to not already be targeting them. Which is probably a bad thing since they're already a negative quality target. QR would thus be great for helping to avoid sacks, but on the backside it be forcing more passes into lower quality targets and leaning more on your progressions.

- Pass Awarness could be a double edged sword depending on how it works. Sure, it'll help you find better targets sooner by evaluating them with a higher quality score, but it would also help eliminate lower quality targets by enhancing their negative scores. If you've got 5 targets on routes that haven't gotten a positive quality score yet and you're about to eat a sack, then pass awareness could actually be furthering your QB's opinion that they should eat the sack instead of throwing the ball by enhancing those negative quality scores. Common situations where you'd have all 5 targets with very bad negative quality scores? 3rd down with nobody near the first down marker yet.

- Pocket Awareness might impact the "minimum score" threshold to unload a pass at a target and avoid a sack in addition to it's probable pathing logic function for QB's rolling around in/out of the pocket.

- maybe the other QB and WR skills impact the value of targets too? High pass tech giving more quality score to covered targets? High power/accuracy improving quality score for deeper targets or thread the needle type throws? WRs can obvioulsy enhance their target score the most by getting open through skills/route design. Maybe CiT improves their score when covered though?

- assume that morale/energy play a role in modifying the skills that all come into play.

- the chance for an official "hurry" with it's pass quality penalties and such is based on target score. The closer to maximum it was, lower chance of hurry. The closer the targets score was to barely beating the minimum "avoid sack" score, the better the chance of a hurry. Intimidation skill probably modifies this chance for a hurry or maybe it increases the distance from which a QB will begin their forced throw decision making relative to a pass rusher, thus presumably putting them closer to the minimum score and thus inducing a higher hurry % chance. This would explain why some seemingly sure-fire hurries aren't actually hurries. Yeah, you forced the pass, but they were about to unload it for max score reasons anyhow.

TL;DR and all that, but there is a dump of my thoughts on the matter of QB decisionmaking and various QB skills/SAs. It's probably about as likely as anyone else's theory
Edited by Galithor on May 26, 2015 12:41:14
Edited by Galithor on May 26, 2015 12:39:32
Edited by Galithor on May 26, 2015 12:36:09
Edited by Galithor on May 26, 2015 12:34:28
Edited by Galithor on May 26, 2015 12:27:36
 
TehKyou
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I skipped down to "Thoughts based on these assumptions"

Good read, kinda what we're working on Captain Awesome already
 
TehKyou
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Edit: wrong thread
Edited by TehKyou on May 26, 2015 12:19:53
Edited by TehKyou on May 26, 2015 12:19:16
 
Galithor
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Originally posted by Galactic Empire
In that case, it should be fairly easy to sack him.


depends on the situation. if it works like I described in the TL;DR theory article I just posted, then pass awareness at a low score may be helping avoid sacks when none of his targets have a positive quality score. Their "negative" quality scores are less negative and such.

If I had to guess how Xars will do against FSM though, I suspect Belgarath will get sacked pretty good, but won't suffer as bad of a morale/energy spiral leading to a higher sack frequency as the game progresses.
Edited by Galithor on May 26, 2015 12:41:52
 
Galithor
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fwiw, the above would explain those hilarious underthrown streaks passes you see in lower tiers. The receivers are easily covered when in range on the streak routes, then get out of range completely for lower skill QBs. So the progression and timer score has to overcome a basically permanent minimum quality score. Since all rookie QBs have no better than bronze QR and generally low passing skills, you're looking at it taking a long time before they finally hit max value, and lob that woefully underthrown pass.

I haven't ever looked, but it'd be interesting to check and see if those passes are always to the same "first progression" target.
 
Absolut Zero
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Originally posted by Galithor
Xars doesn't want his QB going through reads though. He's feeding Belgarion like a prize hog. To hell with whether he's doubled or not.


I'd like to see another defense besides ICK try and completely shut down the TE and WR3 leaving WR1 and WR2 in favorable spots. Wonder if that was just a bad game for a defense doing that or what.

Originally posted by Galithor
The QB decides to emergency unload passes right before a sack based on reasons other than pass awareness and who is currently targeted. Presumably pocket awareness, but that's been shown to have pretty marginal value too in avoiding sacks.

I recall that Bort or Corndog said progressions didn't work the same as GLB1 where it was literally a one after another read. Wasn't it described as being more like a weighting/value thing in GLB2? So the earlier progressions simply had more innate target value... regardless of the value from being "open". You needed pass awareness skill and/or quick read to help the QB assign more value to the "open/good" target and shift value from the "progressions". Maybe I remember this incorrectly though.

In Xars case, his lower PA and lack of QR simply means it takes really, really high "I'm Open" scores for his lower progression targets to get selected by the QB. Which could be a good thing from an efficiency standpoint. The QB only messes with them when they're basically a sure bet. Otherwise, the QB is following progression rank and feeding Belgarion.

Or maybe my understanding of how progressions vs target quality works with pass awareness and quick read is wrong.


Now this is interesting. Hadn't thought of it like that. Xars runs routes where the primary reads have the best options for a 1st down. So for a playbook/roster build, it's in sync. If Xars tried messing with his playbook, his O could start falling apart due to lack of PA/QR if the other reads aren't working out.
 
Stobie
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Why do you think he sticks to his 5 plays consistently?
 
TehKyou
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A.) He's lazy
B.) It works
 
crazieveggie
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Look when a team is #1 in the ladder in Veteran and run's 5 plays.... What does that say about passing in GLB2... Just sayin. It does work. He must be getting that Bonus for calling the 5th play.
 
Stobie
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Originally posted by crazieveggie
Look when a team is #1 in the ladder in Veteran and run's 5 plays.... What does that say about passing in GLB2... Just sayin. It does work. He must be getting that Bonus for calling the 5th play.


It's about mismatches and he takes full advantage of them just like running did a few seasons back, but then defenses keyed on stopping the rush so passing looks easy, you will find defenses will creep back to passing and rushing will look simple. It's all about the movement of the 'norm' for the MMO
 
_OSIRIS_
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http://i.imgur.com/ZNGgq8k.gif?1
 
Xars
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Originally posted by TehKyou
A.) He's lazy
B.) It works


Originally posted by crazieveggie
Look when a team is #1 in the ladder in Veteran and run's 5 plays.... What does that say about passing in GLB2... Just sayin. It does work. He must be getting that Bonus for calling the 5th play.


Well there are some things I think I've learned while doing this:

QR helps with pressure. When you blitz, the QB needs to make decision faster. Finding a somewhat open WR is the goal. But with LZ, I've got a dominant OLine and a good blocking Scat Back, so I want Belgarath to stay on Belgarion as long as possible. Belgarion doesn't have any Elusiveness/Head Fake, but he does have 87 Quickness. With Gold First Step, he gets to the cut fast and then makes a cut inside/outside most normal CBs can't hang with. Belgarath only needs to slide a little in the pocket to buy enough time for Belgarion to get the target.

The other thing I've noticed is doubling Belgarion doesn't reduce his targets much. To take away my WR3, you need to triple him - and that means Nickel 3-3-5 Man Base. Then my TEs and WR1/2 get all the targets. And with lack of pressure on the QB, they seem to catch more 15+ yard passes than 10+.

On the 5 plays, it may be lazy or they may be OP. But I really think it's the COMBO of them all that is their strength. It's hard to run a D that stops all 5 - either playcalling or builds. When I see teams only 1-2-3 of the plays, I can figure out a D play call that should work decently. But for those 5, I don't think there is a magic bullet. And since they are the only plays I run, I have optimized my builds to run them. So there is that too.

Originally posted by Absolut Zero
Now this is interesting. Hadn't thought of it like that. Xars runs routes where the primary reads have the best options for a 1st down. So for a playbook/roster build, it's in sync. If Xars tried messing with his playbook, his O could start falling apart due to lack of PA/QR if the other reads aren't working out.


This. The builds are optimized to run the playbook. (That said if I started over I think I could tweak things better.). So if I changed up the plays, there's a good chance I'm hurting myself rather than outfoxing an opponent.
 
Absolut Zero
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I suppose this is the place to ask, how much conditioning is actually needed on a QB? Heart/Morale, absolutely understand why they need it. But Conditioning? Does it matter if the QB is at zero energy?
 
Xars
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Originally posted by Absolut Zero
I suppose this is the place to ask, how much conditioning is actually needed on a QB? Heart/Morale, absolutely understand why they need it. But Conditioning? Does it matter if the QB is at zero energy?


Belgarath is at 52. Guess you'd want to see the lowest Conditioning an elite QB has had.
 
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