Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Galactic Empire

I realized it is rookie stats, but Jabba will be a beast in game. He will end up with 100 Hold Ground/Pass Rush Power/Intimidation and 86 Balance.

32 pancaked
167 rev pancakes

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/96513

The thing about rookie is, even with minimum Break Run Block, you're still close enough to the majority of offensive linemen in the Break Run Block vs Run Block Tech skill that you can win enough rolls. But as you continue to not invest in Break Run Block, those power rushing teams are basically 100% pumping their Run Block Technique.

So while you probably started the season winning 50% or so of the blocking rolls, by the end of the season it was probably more like 30% and getting worse, but due to high HG, you got a bunch of revcakes due to devastating wins.

Later, when it's your <30 Break Run Block against O-linemen with 80+ Run Block Technique, you're not going to win many run block rolls at all. You don't get to use Hold Ground to revcake when you're losing rolls. You get to use Hold Ground to try and survive pancakes.

Same deal on pass blocking/breaking blocks.

Originally posted by Galithor
You're not going to demoralize the O-line though the way you think you will. You have to win the initial Break Run Block vs Run Block Tech roll to even have a chance to inflict morale damage. Your Hold Ground is primarily going to be defending you from pancakes following lost Break Run Block rolls. Since you won't win the Break Run Block roll very often, you'll only rarely get to attempt to harm the O-lineman in any significant way, and because he's winning waaaaaay more rolls than you, any damage you do, he'll nearly immediately recover because of future won rolls.

I don't believe this. Do you have proof this is how it works? If so, then the tip is lying. From the tip:

Intimidation: "increases the amount of morale and energy this player causes opponents to lose during hard hitting interactions such as tackling, blocking or power rushing."

Just the interaction of blocking causes morale loss. It doesn't say the player has to win the blocking battle first, etc...

Originally posted by Galithor
The thing about rookie is, even with minimum Break Run Block, you're still close enough to the majority of offensive linemen in the Break Run Block vs Run Block Tech skill that you can win enough rolls. But as you continue to not invest in Break Run Block, those power rushing teams are basically 100% pumping their Run Block Technique.

So while you probably started the season winning 50% or so of the blocking rolls, by the end of the season it was probably more like 30% and getting worse, but due to high HG, you got a bunch of revcakes due to devastating wins.

Later, when it's your <30 Break Run Block against O-linemen with 80+ Run Block Technique, you're not going to win many run block rolls at all. You don't get to use Hold Ground to revcake when you're losing rolls. You get to use Hold Ground to try and survive pancakes.

Same deal on pass blocking/breaking blocks.

Again...where is the proof. The tool tip says nothing about winning a blocking interaction before Hold Ground, Pass Rush Power or Intimidation comes into play.

I think Galithor is mostly right. Look at this DT on the Sharks, Drago Hiro http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/98251/2684953?player_id=44941

He has 73 intimidation. He goes up against MIM RG.

Guard stays at 100 for first 3 pulses. 4th pule MIM RG loses 2 morale as Hiro finally shoves him off with a strong hold ground roll.

pulse 1: MIM RG no change, Drago Hiro -3 instantly
pulse 2: MIM RG no change, Drago Hiro +2 (probably from triggering Shed Block ability)
pulse 3: MIM RG no change, Drago Hiro -2
pulse 4: MIN RG -2, Drago Hiro +2 (won the block interaction finally)


The next play is obvious to because Drago wins a shed block right away and MIM RG loses morale, but then MIM RG gomes right back and wins the next block pulse and triggers pancake chef, and Drago loses 3.

If you thumb through these guy's interactions its easy to see, especially with the shed block triggering. If a guy is moved back, it's obvious that is when he loses morale and the other one gains it.

Actually just check out my Fullback blocker playing nose tackle on field goal defense. His name is Rampage Jackson http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/111741/2830008?player_id=61546

he gets moved every pulse at a maximum distance and loses 8 morale just being pushed back over a few pulses, -2, -2, -2, -1, -1. The center loses nothing despite Rampage having 45 intimidation skill. Since he's on defense, he has crappy hold ground and break run block, the base is something bad like 15 or 20 I think. So the center pushes the crap outa him and wins 5 straight pulses.

Not to go on a tangent, but losing blocking can be detrimental. It's why you can't make a running blocking guard with 15 pass block tech and 15 pass block power. Unless your team never ever throws. But if they are throwing 20 or more passes a game I wouldn't go balls out in 1-direction. Because all those lost pass blocking interactions add up in between runs, especially if he eats a revpancake just for the sheer reason of having no skills in both sides.

So the guarenteed pass blocking loss strings are actually hurting your big run blocker when he run blocks, due to performance loss due to lower morale. I'd always try to go like 80/20, 70/30 or something into your non-specialty, with the emphasis mostly all in tech. Just so you don't lose. Power isn't a big deal, as long as your guy is breaking even part-time.

This is on my mind just because I'm looking at all these free agents with 100 BRB and HG, and 15 pass block tech. Lol. Enjoy retirement guys.

Yeah, intimidation *might* help inflict damage when losing rolls. But it's barely noticeable if so.

We did the same thing you're trying to do on Coruscant with Peter Griffin on Air Raid. It wasn't great though, so we stopped ~80 or so on PRP/HG/Intim a couple seasons ago, and I had him start pumping BRB/PRT/Footwork instead. He got demonstrably more effective the last season and a half as those skills were increased, to the point he was the #1 HOF DT last season.

It's one of the reasons the balance is broken if you can create an entire team yourself, and go 100% in 1 direction run or pass.

You can build an entire blocking team 1-way, with high intimidation and things like beat down, because you aren't going to get hurt when your QB changes the playcalling up. Because he never will.

So you can have an all pass team with all passing blocking skills, and you are guarenteed to just destroy the defense's morale every play.

It gets even better if you have an all running team, because you can have a slow built quarter back with 100 leadership who's only job is to hand the ball off, and pump the offense back to 100% morale every play, while your guys are 100% run block caking and smashing well built dots, but who are unable to handle a machine like that. Not to mention tbe benefits on special teams. 100% rugby style 100% run playcalling team built for it is the best way to go. If you go up against a team like that, better have a kickoff specialist at the least.

Originally posted by Mezirah
Not to go on a tangent, but losing blocking can be detrimental. It's why you can't make a running blocking guard with 15 pass block tech and 15 pass block power. Unless your team never ever throws. But if they are throwing 20 or more passes a game I wouldn't go balls out in 1-direction. Because all those lost pass blocking interactions add up in between runs, especially if he eats a revpancake just for the sheer reason of having no skills in both sides.

So the guarenteed pass blocking loss strings are actually hurting your big run blocker when he run blocks, due to performance loss due to lower morale. I'd always try to go like 80/20, 70/30 or something into your non-specialty, with the emphasis mostly all in tech. Just so you don't lose. Power isn't a big deal, as long as your guy is breaking even part-time.

This is on my mind just because I'm looking at all these free agents with 100 BRB and HG, and 15 pass block tech. Lol. Enjoy retirement guys.

Though, a 100 HG/BRB DE would probably be in high demand right now

A good and very active defensive coordinator can tailor the depth chart and use formation specific defenses to minimize the time such a specialist would be on the field against the wrong type of play.

Originally posted by Galithor
Though, a 100 HG/BRB DE would probably be in high demand right now

A good and very active defensive coordinator can tailor the depth chart and use formation specific defenses to minimize the time such a specialist would be on the field against the wrong type of play.

Well yeah, I always thought a backup should be a variation in specialty, like if you have 2 heavy pass rush DT's, you could keep that 100 HG/BRB guy on the bench for infrequent subbing, and to start against big run teams. Backups shouldn't be your worst players, you should have ALL great players with certain guys with SA's and skills you can bring in appropriately.

Of course not all of us have the networks and flex to build beautiful rosters tailor made, but with free agency you can try to go out and get a guy like that if he becomes available.

I still don't know if the leadership nerf will be enough because of teams with extreme builds in 1 direction because it is still so powerful. If your blockers aren't losing interactions much, anything they do lose, leadership will take care of no matter what level it's at. As a defender, there's very little incentive to try and build intimidation guys, except for a trash talk build, but that is most likely getting nerfed since it's exploitable.

It just seems very unrealistic to code this way. In real life, that would never happen. When a player is engaged in a block, he has 2 choices, bull rush the guy or use tech to break the block. He wouldn't use both. If you are saying that in order for the Hold Ground or Pass Rush Power to even enter the picture is if you win a break run block or break pass block is just stupid. In real life, the big, strong DL would just pancake the OL with his Hold Ground or Pass Rush Power (and balance) and never try to "break the block".

I don't see why Break Run Block would ever be part of the interaction if he just wants to try and pancake the OLman.

I don't what's funnier - the Don King-like promotion of your middling team, or the fact that when people who know what they're talking about try to give you advice, you more or less tell them they're wrong.

Sorry to be harsh, but if you really are building your entire team in the manner you continue to thump your chest about, you're going to have an extremely difficult time going forward.

I appreciate active posters and unique styles of game play/builds, but consider it free advice.

Guess we'll see what happens. If it doesn't work I'll reset. But my gut tells me I'll be the last one laughing!

In real life even a bull rush relies on certain "techniques" such as hand placement, leverage and hip bend. Its not just like the guy who can bench more automatically bowls over the other guy, so the way the code works isn't that far off real life actually.

The title of the skill being "break run block" might just be a tad misleading. It definitely affects breaking run blocks but thats not all it seems to do.

I don't think the type of player you are building is completely useless (at least the really high intim part) but you really need tech guys to take advantage of the loss of morale that will occur over the course of the game due to the high intim power guy wearing down the OL. I made the mistake of buildling my DTs as 1 tech/run stopper and 2 hybrid/power guys whereas I wish I went 1 tech/run stopper, 1 tech/pass rusher, 1 hybrid power guy. I've been sort of adjusting how I put in recent SPs to skew it a little more towards the latter.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Guess we'll see what happens. If it doesn't work I'll reset. But my gut tells me I'll be the last one laughing!

It's true nobody really knows. But it is season 7 and a lot of us have been watching and discussing for a long time, and all power isn't a good move. There was a guy earlier this year who made a post titled Watch my 99 Pass Rush Power DT do nothing. And he had no hurries or sacks, and when you watch film, he would push the guards around, but never break off and head for the QB. True it opened up a rushing lane, which is tough to find when inside blitzing, so, technically if you want to be very very clever and crafty you can make it work but it takes a ton of micromanagement. The Tech guys just simply trigger spin cycle vs the pass, or break run blocks and make nice tackles for loss, and it can happen as much as once per game, and can be a big stop.