Warrior General Games

Originally posted by NiborRis
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/98174/92797
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/98174/92922

and that settles it. It's the new FOTM thing for every rookie team to add one of these guys to your defense. QB rollouts? How about eating TFLs at 1 morale. Passing? Do it from 1 morale for over 3/4ths of the game.

Originally posted by NiborRis
99 in primary stat and gold SA probably deserves to be good, especially when the opposing stat is 40 or less, right? Major investment in a stat you may otherwise not care about and you have to plan your D plays around it as well.

I don't know. It's not like it's a massive thing to have to accomodate. A bunch of teams blitz alot anyhow, and there's a couple of 3 down linemen type coverage plays that are rushing the LOLB by default as the 4th pass rusher.

If it's not something folks feel like is worth addressing, I think we're going to see a generation of teams carrying a 10 confidence, 100 intimidation blitz-backer with Gold Trash Talk, if only to force opposing QBs to have to go get their own 80+ toughness builds (which may or may not even be good enough to protect against it effectively). Just the mere threat of one player on the defense being built in a certain way is going to force the focal point of an offensive passing attack or edge rushing team to build their key player to counter, and the defensive player in question never even has to be a realistic threat to touch the QB. He's just gotta exist.

Heck, just because of the data shown in this thread we're probably already going to see a dozen or so rookie teams this season cut a LB before the end of the season and rebuild them to already have 95 intimidation and silver trash talk to start next season. Won't even matter that he's gonna have sub 20 skills elsewhere for sophomore. He'll be the catalyst that leads the other players around him to slaughter Passing and Rolling-out QBs.

It'll take more than just next season because Silver probably won't fire enough. Seasoned tier will be interesting.

I'm waiting to see it fire from two LBs on a ZEB. I've got 3 Blitzing LBs on the Boys that can all hit 94 Intim based on current builds.

Originally posted by Galithor
Wow. That's pretty unbelievable. So toughness doesn't change it's chance to fire at all I'd say. It's definitely just "get 100 intimidation and gold trash talk and trolololol".

So... pretty much every defense is gonna want one of these guys in the future eh? Detroit better butter up that agent, cause he's going to be getting offers from every veteran team this offseason

Like I said earlier in this thread. Part of my master plan is to zone blitz with Gold TT and very high Intimidation LBs along with very fast CBs on most plays.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Like I said earlier in this thread. Part of my master plan is to zone blitz with Gold TT and very high Intimidation LBs along with very fast CBs on most plays.

Oh shit! The Ewok's outta the bag!

I'd at least like to see it play out a little bit and give offenses time to react. I think my first concern is that even with really low morale on the LB the TT seems to hit for about as much - with his own morale at 40 or 15 his effective intim shouldn't be anywhere near 99, so the amount of morale hit from TT should be lower, but it doesn't seem like it is.

Just tweaking that might be enough - offenses can then try to counter by trying to set the TT LB up for being pancaked repeatedly and either knock him out of the game due to being substituted for or just keep his energy/morale low enough that the TT isn't nearly so painful.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Like I said earlier in this thread. Part of my master plan is to zone blitz with Gold TT and very high Intimidation LBs along with very fast CBs on most plays.

I'm in love with Prime Time even more and glad I'm making a Fleet of Receivers with it. I'm also glad I've been pushing high Confidence in almost all my builds for this rookie team (LZ Boys).

This will be fun. Empire Trash Talking my QB Belgarath all day who's passing to jumping/diving/TD catching WR Belgarion and triggering Prime Time to offset QB Morale loss.

We'll see who can trigger it more. Your TT's or my Prime Time's.

It's going to be a fun ride these next few months.

Corndog shouldn't change a thing until we see this play out.

Empire vs. LZ Boys could turn into some epic fights. And to think I almost named my QB-WR S* combo Darth Vader-Luke Skywalker, but went with the non-used Belgariad characters.

Originally posted by pottsman
How the hell does that not seem low to you? 25 of anything, on a pro, means you've been willfully ignoring that trait.

100% Agree.

Only reason people don't think its low is because Laggo and Amagi. My hat is off to him for having built a great QB for an open passing system at a low level really is. But then like the NFL everyone tries to copycat (well the guys who read the forums) and they do so regardless of the personnel around them. If your going to throw 5 yard hooks all day...maybe so. If your trying to use a full playbook 25 is creating a single point of failure that can be exploited by the defense. Its like Miami and the wildcat..turned out Ronnie Brown and teammates where the only ones who could run it well for awhile and despite the copy's from the rest of the league it never really became more than gimmick.

However we are always going to have this "push-pull" battle between guys who want to dump all their points into 3-4 stats while ignoring the others and a community that thinks "well built" does not mean single built and that completeness should count.

Originally posted by Galithor
Toughness also helps you mitigate the impact of sacks. I've also felt that it reduces the sudden stamina loss when you throw the ball, but I've not really looked at that closely enough to be sure if it's toughness or just conditioning.

But yeah, it's like Dropback Grip. Whether it's worth it to toss 10-20 points into it at the expense of a couple points of something like accuracy is debatable. For our part, we did it on Air Raid just to have a steadier performance at QB regardless of what the defense manages to pull off.

Fwiw, you suffered more trash talks in that one game than I've ever seen in a single game by anyone.

Galithor.. it's toughness as well. I've seen too many QBs with nearly identical conditioning and very different toughness scores. One is tired after 2-3 throws , the other can go the whole drive.

I've got it from a private sim earlier in the season but two SS QB's exact same conditioning score to start the season(41) ... one had toughness at 20 one at 13 (Sophomore start of season); there is about a 7-9 point energy difference by the 5th play of the opening series for both. [Side note neither had been sacked or engaged in blocking]

If folks don't want to nerf it, that's fine with me. I can have Ground Assault build to exploit it too. I'm just forewarning the result here, and it's lots of gnashing of teeth.

Originally posted by Galithor
If folks don't want to nerf it, that's fine with me. I can have Ground Assault build to exploit it too. I'm just forewarning the result here, and it's lots of gnashing of teeth.

I think it would be premature to nerf. Plenty of QBs out there still carrying "base" toughness. If your creating a single point of failure ... when it fails it should be catastrophic. Should TT fire and demoralize a QB with 30-40 in 3 plays...no but if your still at base yes. It's like WR's complaining if they have 12 heart then 1 drop becomes 5 - Single point of failure. Only difference is the QB touches the ball every play so if he goes bad the offense goes caput where as a WR there are likely 5-6 other options (if you count the TE's) to throw too.

I mean would we stress a RB with 15 carrying grip..designed to only run outside pitches and set to elusive so that he only runs out of bounds fumbling every 5-10 plays?

Originally posted by Galithor
If folks don't want to nerf it, that's fine with me. I can have Ground Assault build to exploit it too. I'm just forewarning the result here, and it's lots of gnashing of teeth.

Also just re-ran a scrim to confirm what I posted above:
QB1: 41 CON 21 Toughness - Energy after 10 plays :75
QB2: 41 CON 15 Toughness - Energy after 5 plays: 75

6 Point Differential... obviously the effect is less pronounced the higher on the bar you go. Also for the record the QB1 had TT fired against him three times that drive with fairly minimal effect (granted its sophomore ball).

Originally posted by Galithor
If folks don't want to nerf it, that's fine with me. I can have Ground Assault build to exploit it too. I'm just forewarning the result here, and it's lots of gnashing of teeth.

It's not that we don't want it nerfed, it's that we don't know if it's counter-able.

If there are adequate counters in the game, then it's fine. If those counters don't work and/or have excessive SP costs relative to the SP cost of high Intim TT, then it should be changed.

We're only partially into the first season of the game being played by dots with end game builds. There are a bunch of new builds coming up over the next few seasons. This Rookie season will take another 5 seasons to get to endgame.

My position is let's not rush to change something until we see what's going on. It'll be an interesting experiment that once we have results, we can look to modify.

imho

Originally posted by william78
I think it would be premature to nerf. Plenty of QBs out there still carrying "base" toughness. If your creating a single point of failure ... when it fails it should be catastrophic. Should TT fire and demoralize a QB with 30-40 in 3 plays...no but if your still at base yes. It's like WR's complaining if they have 12 heart then 1 drop becomes 5 - Single point of failure. Only difference is the QB touches the ball every play so if he goes bad the offense goes caput where as a WR there are likely 5-6 other options (if you count the TE's) to throw too.

I mean would we stress a RB with 15 carrying grip..designed to only run outside pitches and set to elusive so that he only runs out of bounds fumbling every 5-10 plays?

The test above was run with a 40 toughness QB. He was at 1 morale before the end of the first quarter. You ready to build 80+ toughness QBs? And you might prevent your QB from falling all the way to 1 with a big toughness build, but I bet you're still looking at pretty crappy morale for most of the game. 50 morale sucks half as bad as 1 morale, but it still sucks.

Originally posted by Galithor
The test above was run with a 40 toughness QB. He was at 1 morale before the end of the first quarter. You ready to build 80+ toughness QBs? And you might prevent your QB from falling all the way to 1 with a big toughness build, but I bet you're still looking at pretty crappy morale for most of the game. 50 morale sucks half as bad as 1 morale, but it still sucks.

I agree with you there if your testing at high ends thats fine and maybe it needs to be modified on the counters (not nerfed) but I don't think we should ever reward intentionally ignoring a stat that gets used every play.

90+ intim on a LB is such a huge SP investment that if you build a team of those guys the 1 morale QB will still probably be able to move the ball successfully just due to how bad at everything besides trash talking the LBs are.

This doesn't seem that op at all to me as of yet.

Edit: and good luck against running teams that dont rely on their QB a lot if you base your D on this.