Warrior General Games

this preseason I have noticed more INT's.

Could be low chem
Could be CBs spent some points on intercept
Could be tweak to CB coverage.

I don't know
(could also be low sample size and coincidental rolls)

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/13396/2433164

The moment the pass is thrown, the CB decides to stop and watch it, instead of just keeping pace with the streak-route running WR? Huge TD risk there.

Originally posted by brock86
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/13396/2433164

The moment the pass is thrown, the CB decides to stop and watch it, instead of just keeping pace with the streak-route running WR? Huge TD risk there.

Yeah, this is really bad, and it's probably either directly or indirectly because of the fix.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/13660/2478127
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/13660/2478246
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/13660/2478278
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/13660/2478273

Although it gives the appearance that the DB is "turning his head to the pass" I'm pretty sure that's not what is actually happening.

Rather, I think that once the pass is thrown, the DB is making a "check where the WR is" awareness check, and when he passes it (which is almost instantly, but I bet a LOT of DBs have been investing into awareness) he re-calcs his motion to head right to the WR. This is a problem, because it's either a course to move right to the stationary location of the WR, or it's an "intercept" plot to the WR, which sucks for coverage when the DB and WR are placed like that (think of the issues we would see back in GLB 1 when a CB would move towards the line at the snap, and then the WR would shoot past him and the DB would have to U-turn to catch him, it's basically that same dynamic).

I'm not sure of the easy way to fix that. To steal terminology from this Steering Behaviors paper:
http://www.red3d.com/cwr/steer/gdc99/

I think what we have is like a "seek" - motion to a specific point. It's possible it's "pursuit" - motion to the predicted location of a moving target, but it's not working well because the predicted location is still behind the current location of the DB. What we likely need is the pursuit analog for "arrival" - instead of trying to get to speed=0, you want to get to speed=target speed. I haven't really played with that notion so I'm not sure how hard that is to create if you don't have it set up already.

While the code change probably triggered this to be more likely, from what I understand it's mostly a pass to make the awareness check easier? If so, I think we may have started to see this anyway in a season or two as DBs started making those awareness checks more and more frequently, and everyone is moving faster to make the problem more obvious.

Going to see a lot more PDs, a lot more long catches. Not horrible, but when both the safety and the CB go to ball instead of playing the man it might be a problem.

Better to have the CBs play the man to the ball instead of stopping short and finding a spot where they will try to make the PD.

Originally posted by Time Trial
Going to see a lot more PDs, a lot more long catches. Not horrible, but when both the safety and the CB go to ball instead of playing the man it might be a problem.

Better to have the CBs play the man to the ball instead of stopping short and finding a spot where they will try to make the PD.

They are playing the man.

Running so many tests to try and fix this.

And it seems the possible fix might have been ridiculously simple.

Originally posted by Corndog
And it seems the possible fix might have been ridiculously simple.

Isn't it 99% of the time that way?

Originally posted by Corndog
And it seems the possible fix might have been ridiculously simple.

Or maybe not.

grr

The most annoying part is, I mean, it would be easy to just make them go to the exact spot where the WR is going to catch the ball...but that is hella awkward since half the time then CB will get there before the WR then the WR just runs to him and tries to catch it.

So you have to make the CB "dumb", but not too dumb.

Yeah it's awkward, and you have to not screw things up for when the WR is ahead of the DB, too.

For maximum realism you'd want something like:
The DB notices the WR is no longer "on route" or whatever your check is for, and locates the pass.
The DB estimates (could be some error introduced here?) the time T the ball will take to arrive
The DB estimates where the WR will be in T ticks and what his movement vector will be (again, with some error based on the DB rolls)
Matching that location and movement is...not pretty. You could easily pick a location, even with some error, but if the DB is just sitting there and the WR makes the catch, the WR will fly by as the DB is stuck at a standstill. That seems poor.

Maybe...hm. Get an "estimated" time T, then estimate where the WR will be based on his current course at that time. Then move to that spot, but at a speed so you get there at exactly T rather than "as fast as possible".
If the WR is behind you, but will catch you before getting the ball, you'll slow down but won't turn around - allowing the WR to catch up.
If the WR is behind you and will catch behind you, you'll turn around.
If the WR is ahead of you, you'll try to speed up (good luck, I guess).
You get some error in the time estimate and the x,y location based on the appropriate skills and you hopefully get decent looking results.

Not that you're really asking for ideas, I just enjoy ruminating on such things.

Finally found a way to do it that seems to work, and I'm happy with the logic of it rather than just mashing in crap and hoping for the best.

Fingers crossed

Let's hope you got it Corndog.

Since I'm not sure how everything is calculated, this might not make sense.

Could you just make the CB checks every other tick instead of each tick, to simulate the CB reacting to what the WR does in real life? If the CB is making an awareness or coverage check every tick, as I believe I read somewhere earlier in different words, then of course the CB will get there before or at the same time as the WR. Giving the CB half as many checks would mean the WR could start a cut on one tick and the CB doesn't get a chance to make a check to see if he sees where the WR is going to follow him until a tick later. Or the WR breaks for an off target pass, but the CB doesn't get to make his check until a tick after the WR.

Seems like this would make the CB more reactive, as they should be. To some it may sound like this is worsening the problem, but now you can include the code that makes the CB smart. Because I believe the problem in the first place wasn't the CB reacting, it was the CB's reaction was dumb (save for those Forrest Gump plays). Now the CB can run to the WR to make the safe tackle, or be there to make a play on the ball if he is willing to risk missing the ball or is confident he can break the pass up, just like in real life.

If the CB is too smart, you can also look at receiving awareness also making the WR get better position to catch the ball, like cutting in front of the defender and jumping for the ball on an under thrown post that is being jumped by a safety or something. Right now it's pretty weird to see guys just watch other plays stand there and catch the ball. There is no fighting for position between the CB and WR like in real life. Receiver just runs to point A, wait for ball, while the CB runs to point B where the ball would land if there were no receiver, watches the receiver catch the ball right in front of him, then tackles the receiver and is completely happy. Even on flares a safety or LB might be right next to the back before the ball is thrown, then just stand right next to him and watch him catch the ball, then tackle him. It's funny to think all the pass defenders are completely oblivious, really slow, or the worst decision makers ever in football, but as soon as the ball is caught they all of a sudden instantly know who has the ball all the way across the field and where they are and where they are going to run and the best pursuit angle to take to get there based on each players' speed.

This could introduce a 3 option coverage dropdown like there is for rushing and carrying the ball.

1)Aggressive - Defend the pass as often as you can, even if you are just arriving near the ball as it is getting to receiver most of the time
2)Balanced
3)Safe - Only go for the ball if you arrive with plenty of time before the ball arrives to be in a good position to increase your chances to make a play on it


Also, alcohol, headaches, and waking up in the middle of teh night.