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Originally posted by Xars
WRs do have specific SAs for use against Man. They don't against Zone. So while you want Man SA's available to Zone players, you don't want them exposed to Head Fake? Or you do?

Just trying to clarify everyone's position.


QB's counter that with Pump Fake though.

 
ThePh33P
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Originally posted by Xars
WRs do have specific SAs for use against Man. They don't against Zone. So while you want Man SA's available to Zone players, you don't want them exposed to Head Fake? Or you do?

Just trying to clarify everyone's position.


Head Fake works against zone, Pump Fake works against man, Tunnel vision works against rushing qb, EOTP lasts forever after a pick with it. Plenty of sa bugs to go around
Edited by ThePh33P on Sep 5, 2021 18:12:58
Edited by ThePh33P on Sep 5, 2021 18:11:19
 
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Xars
WRs do have specific SAs for use against Man. They don't against Zone. So while you want Man SA's available to Zone players, you don't want them exposed to Head Fake? Or you do?

Just trying to clarify everyone's position.


No that was my point. Things like Head Fake works against Man, but not Zone. I don't want Man SAs added to Zone, or vice versa
 
Cybertron
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Originally posted by Xars
WRs do have specific SAs for use against Man. They don't against Zone. So while you want Man SA's available to Zone players, you don't want them exposed to Head Fake? Or you do?

Just trying to clarify everyone's position.


What about pump fake? That doesn’t effect man coverage.
 
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Cybertron
What about pump fake? That doesn’t effect man coverage.


Pump Fake is good and that's a fair point, but we were talking about the deep ball. Nothing compares to Head Fake in that regard

And this shouldn't be a Man vs Zone thing really. Both defenses are in a good place right now
Edited by BoDiddley on Sep 5, 2021 19:24:56
 
Xars
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Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
QB's counter that with Pump Fake though.



But does it really? I had 87 Pass Awareness and Gold Pump Fake. Looks much better than it performs. Perhaps I was missing something.

Then again, Head Fake is one of those which is awesome once a game but doesn't seem to do enough over a whole game.

I don't think Man CB SAs are the answer because the Defenses are setup different. I think a different answer is (potentially) needed.

It could be double coverage situations. It could be something Zone specific. It could just be nerfing deep passes generally so while they can be home runs, they aren't normally.

Or it could be the Tiger Blitzes. Throwing deep is going to require time. Well past the normal time for sacks. It could be that Zone gets it's blitzes buffed.

 
ThePh33P
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Originally posted by Xars
But does it really? I had 87 Pass Awareness and Gold Pump Fake. Looks much better than it performs. Perhaps I was missing something.

Then again, Head Fake is one of those which is awesome once a game but doesn't seem to do enough over a whole game.

I don't think Man CB SAs are the answer because the Defenses are setup different. I think a different answer is (potentially) needed.

It could be double coverage situations. It could be something Zone specific. It could just be nerfing deep passes generally so while they can be home runs, they aren't normally.

Or it could be the Tiger Blitzes. Throwing deep is going to require time. Well past the normal time for sacks. It could be that Zone gets it's blitzes buffed.



I've tested multiple receivers all with very high elusiveness and tech and didn't see very good results
Did man awareness have the same problem as rec awareness?
 
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Originally posted by Xars
But does it really? I had 87 Pass Awareness and Gold Pump Fake. Looks much better than it performs. Perhaps I was missing something.

Then again, Head Fake is one of those which is awesome once a game but doesn't seem to do enough over a whole game.

I don't think Man CB SAs are the answer because the Defenses are setup different. I think a different answer is (potentially) needed.

It could be double coverage situations. It could be something Zone specific. It could just be nerfing deep passes generally so while they can be home runs, they aren't normally.

Or it could be the Tiger Blitzes. Throwing deep is going to require time. Well past the normal time for sacks. It could be that Zone gets it's blitzes buffed.



Eh, since I have had Pump Fake used on me for some time I think it works fine, it comes down to the route and when the QB throws.

After I put some thought into it, my original idea for Zone Shark is rather pointless because of Monster Hit. If a SA fix is applied, I think it would be natural to just make Swat Down a universal SA since Man already has OAI... they seem kinda redundant to me anyways.

But I digress, you might be on something about nerfing deep passes. Your idea as to making them something that isn't easily completed almost every play might be a start... Buffing Zone Blitzes might even be better suggestion though and it would fall into that Risk vs Reward theme Zone lives by. I dunno... C-Dog said they made it so Blitz's were better, but I've not seen it yet.
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 20:14:16
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 20:13:30
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 20:13:08
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 20:12:07
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 20:11:18
 
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Eh, since I have had Pump Fake used on me for some time I think it works fine, it comes down to the route and when the QB throws.

After I put some thought into it, my original idea for Zone Shark is rather pointless because of Monster Hit. If a SA fix is applied, I think it would be natural to just make Swat Down a universal SA since Man already has OAI... they seem kinda redundant to me anyways.

But I digress, you might be on something about nerfing deep passes. Your idea as to making them something that isn't easily completed almost every play might be a start... Buffing Zone Blitzes might even be better suggestion though and it would fall into that Risk vs Reward theme Zone lives by. I dunno... C-Dog said they made it so Blitz's were better, but I've not seen it yet.


So nerf Deep passing, give zone Swat Down, buff zone blitzes, come on Myrik?

I'll keep saying it, show me where zone is nerfed. And no Swat Down and OAI aren't redundant.

 
dlcurt
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
Himalayas's QB build is open https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/319212

46.2% 1 TD 2 ints against that great Lions zone https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/816544

Meanwhile the Lions QB dropped 71.4% 3 td 2 ints against their Man defense


Again, show me where zone is nerfed and Man is OP?



Lions offense was already set for this type of change. The change pretty much bolstered his WR/ TE more, so his scoring will be insane. As Myrik said, if you throw in the middle, you're asking for picks. I'm pretty sure Xars created a post detailing how to beat a zone D. It's pretty spot on for the most part.

As for Man D, it HAS been OP from the beginning. I didn't pay much attention to man defense games today, so unaware of how it performed. I agree with Xars, wait for more games, re-evaulate. Bort/Cdog are watching and that right there is good news.
 
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by dlcurt
Lions offense was already set for this type of change. The change pretty much bolstered his WR/ TE more, so his scoring will be insane. As Myrik said, if you throw in the middle, you're asking for picks. I'm pretty sure Xars created a post detailing how to beat a zone D. It's pretty spot on for the most part.

As for Man D, it HAS been OP from the beginning. I didn't pay much attention to man defense games today, so unaware of how it performed. I agree with Xars, wait for more games, re-evaulate. Bort/Cdog are watching and that right there is good news.


Xars made a post about beating zone D.....and then had more than a few troubles with said zone D.

And no Man D is not OP. It's weaker against the run, and doesn't get as many turnovers against the pass. Like where did all this OP talk come from?Zone and hybrids have been outperforming Man defense of late.

And what's special about the Lions offense? the Himelayas QB build was shown. He couldn't even throw over 50%
 
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
So nerf Deep passing, give zone Swat Down, buff zone blitzes, come on Myrik?

I'll keep saying it, show me where zone is nerfed. And no Swat Down and OAI aren't redundant.



We are spitballing, there's no need for all those nerfs. Just a workable solution.

Both OAI and SD give bonus to pass deflection, yes that's redundant.

Zone does not get all the Ints it used to unless you purposely throw over the middle, Bo, and you know it and it has nothing to help with deep balls unlike Man.

Originally posted by BoDiddley
Xars made a post about beating zone D.....and then had more than a few troubles with said zone D.

And no Man D is not OP. It's weaker against the run, and doesn't get as many turnovers against the pass. Like where did all this OP talk come from?Zone and hybrids have been outperforming Man defense of late.

And what's special about the Lions offense? the Himelayas QB build was shown. He couldn't even throw over 50%


Really? Xar's QB isn't built to take advantage of deep balls, he's been pretty open about that.

And Man is OP, I ran it for years, it is more consistent than Zone despite the lack of TOs. I routinely held 2/3rds of the teams I faced to 300 yards offense and shut out well over a third easily.

You know why Zone and Hybrid has been outperforming Man lately... its because a lot of your top guys switched off of Man to try something new. Its why I switched to Zone. I'm just not bored with it yet to switch to Hybrid, though I may have no choice.

Himelayas QB has no PF or TTN and just how much did he he throw deep vs over the middle and right into the Lion's hands.

I played Nevada who has a S*QB and a S*WR and here is every play they threw for 15yds or more:

Nevada Wolfpack (S*QB & S*WR) 15 yds or more:
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132532 (25yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132656 (19yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132893 (19yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132991 (22yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133013 (21yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133102 (22yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133144 (17yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133152 (15yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133478 (20yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133940 (24yds)

No amount of blitzing helped.
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 23:30:30
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 23:30:00
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 23:28:46
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 23:26:52
Edited by Myrik_Justiciar on Sep 5, 2021 23:25:13
 
Ghanima
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My idea for long passes was head fake and insane CIT. I try to get as many easy catches by headfake to attack morale and then CIT kicks in vs demoralized defender. My QB got golden TDN and 100 pass tech to improve it. My leadership is 91 to further create morale advantage. Aside from arc nerfing on the move caused that needle fire even more for me. My problem is that I got not enough rec awr right now so I lose winnable battles. Slowing velocity of the ball sometimes gives receiver more time to do his magic but also gives defender more time. My comp rate is pretty big right now but it is way lower earlier and way higher late in games.

About zone - there are 2 styles of zone: Blitz style and drop down style. Blitz style was hurt pretty badly now cuz slow moving ball with anticipation is just killin defenders that got big zones. I understand Myrik and his problems.
My zone is about dropping as many people as I can to the place where ball is goin. My zones are small so slow veocity of the ball gives me more time to react. I still lose many battles vs receivers but I feel I got a chance every time. Sometimes it is just good read by QB and I am counting on him to make a bad one.
 
Corndog
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Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Really? Xar's QB isn't built to take advantage of deep balls, he's been pretty open about that.

And Man is OP, I ran it for years, it is more consistent than Zone despite the lack of TOs. I routinely held 2/3rds of the teams I faced to 300 yards offense and shut out well over a third easily.

You know why Zone and Hybrid has been outperforming Man lately... its because a lot of your top guys switched off of Man to try something new. Its why I switched to Zone. I'm just not bored with it yet to switch to Hybrid, though I may have no choice.

Himelayas QB has no PF or TTN and just how much did he he throw deep vs over the middle and right into the Lion's hands.

I played Nevada who has a S*QB and a S*WR and here is every play they threw for 15yds or more:

Nevada Wolfpack (S*QB & S*WR) 15 yds or more:
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132532 (25yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132656 (19yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132893 (19yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/132991 (22yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133013 (21yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133102 (22yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133144 (17yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133152 (15yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133478 (20yds)
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/816564/133940 (24yds)

No amount of blitzing helped.


We are still using you playing a tier up against a superstar QB and WR as proof that it's indefensible?

You also scored zero points, does that mean your offensive scheme is also horribly broken and unplayable?
 
Xars
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
Xars made a post about beating zone D.....and then had more than a few troubles with said zone D.



Yes and no.

I didn't detail everything that went on with my team and game planning. Up until the first BSB game I was in the running for top of the Ladder. I went a little counter to my Zone attack plan against BSB and lost 21-24. I had a few losess, but all were less than one score. So I felt good about the team overall in terms of the testing platform I built. After that I became much more experimental in trying things for the future rather than S54.

I beat the The Seven - they seem to win the first League game we play as they are home and I win the second at home when it's colder - and then faced Dream Team. Just before the Dream game, I changed up my D a lot to try something new. I ran multiple scrims the day before and was pretty confident I'd lose, but I wanted to see how it performed in a real game. So instead of going Pass coverage heavy like I did with Gliwice, I went a new route.

Then I played Himalays and didn't scout them because I was busy with other projects so I didn't even realize they played Zone. Never setup anything to properly attack them. We got run out of the building so then I became even more experimental, not less. The second BSB game came up and, again, I was busy with other projects. I had tweaked my playbook for the prior game as a retrospective but not with the intention of running it again. I used those settings, scored zero and lost 12-0. My defense played really well but not my Offense.

For the third BSB game, I just used my normal anti-zone strategy and won a close game, coming back in the 4th Q and winning in OT. The final game against Lexington I didn't put any specific planning into. Myrik has probably thought I was using that game as part of my anti-Zone comments but it really wasn't. I didn't even watch the game. My focus had been on the previous scrims I was playing, with regards to my defense, and then the wind effect (30 mph) on my noodle arm QB, which were all the scrims I ran on the next day. I was adjusting a bunch of settings around all of that and preoccupied intellectually.

My playoff game against Airborne featured 24mph winds. So you build a low Pass Power QB to loft over Zone and then the wind kills you in SHIP games and end of season Ladder? Which means you need a high Pass Power QB, but then you get picked off all the time by Zone LBs. That's a big advantage to Zone in SHIP / late Ladder games actually - if you get high winds for those games. That's not a guarantee by any means, but it was something I was pondering. It's also contra to actual football where strong arm QBs are a virtual necessity. The wind effect, combined with what Zone was doing, was putting QBs in a box. The wrong box. The solution was to improve Pass Power. Something that should have been improved ages ago. As I've said, Belgarath, my first S* QB, had 69 Pass Power. I've never built a QB since that was even close to that.

People completely misconstrue my Zone is Dead comments all the time. My specific comment is that current Zone is a bad matchup against the overloaded formations. It's not that you can't win at all with it, it's that you won't win the majority of games against top teams. Top teams will, eventually, exclusively use overloaded Offensive formations and win 55-70%+ of the games against the other top teams. What have I been saying for years to GE? TRIPS. Not that Zone is bad against every formation (it's not), but it's not setup to deal with TRIPS. At least with matching up against Big I, you can use 4-4 Big (virtually no one does). But against TRIPS, no one has ever asked for a different formation setup and I find that perplexing when it's so obvious that's how you build the Zone. Instead, there's this belief that a single CB can cover 3 WRs.

From a game balance perspective, Zone needs to be viable - which is precisely why it needs an appropriate formation switch to handle TRIPS - and not some stupid gimmick, like jumping LB INTs and CBs who can cover 3 WRs.

Anyway, I'm open to listening to deep Zone problems. But can we at least see the problem first, before going completely nuts? And is it really a Zone D problem if you're running bullshit plays that don't match formation and personnel but then expecting Zone to excel?

Let's be smart about what should be happening.



Edited by Xars on Sep 6, 2021 04:04:34
Edited by Xars on Sep 6, 2021 04:03:53
Edited by Xars on Sep 6, 2021 04:01:16
Edited by Xars on Sep 6, 2021 03:59:27
Edited by Xars on Sep 6, 2021 03:59:02
 
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