Warrior General Games

Originally posted by william78
But not as much as zone. It's not just a question of where the sim is at the moment but how people will change their building techniques to take advantage of 3 rule changes that just made any corner you want capable of knock out blows and more affordable as well. It's a tad naive to think people won't rapidly change how they build and by level 9 it'll be pretty lopsided as soon as people can gold it.

My CB on Salvo is a Zone CB so he gets to have momentum before the tackle and has 60 Power Tackling. He had 5 KLs last season. How much Power Tackling are you expecting most CBs to get nowadays and why do you think +15 with no %roll adjustment like what Monster Hit gets is going to suddenly shoot up KLs to the moon? There are plenty of 80+ Power Tackling LBs *with* Zone Shark already and their KLs aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. I really don't see how its a buff to Zone and not strictly one for Man and Hybrid. Which, for what its worth, I am building a Hybrid D this coming season and I feel just fine about it.

Originally posted by william78
Good for you...hardly means I have to hang out for rollerderby. Cdog said its overwhelmingly popular you guys want it fine, as to my objection or "bitching" I don't like it if it looks like I think it'll look I don't want to be here for it. No one asked me before hand so I felt free to express my opinion now.

You are a great agent and I hope you stay. This game is much more fun with great owners/builders like yourself.

You can still build a cover 2 man defense and have man CBs with zone safeties that use zone shark.

Originally posted by ellix
How much Power Tackling are you expecting most CBs to get nowadays and why do you think +15 with no %roll adjustment like what Monster Hit gets is going to suddenly shoot up KLs to the moon?

Exactly. I have 2 S* CBs on LSU and neither will be taking zone shark, even with these changes. They will, however, have gold monster hit.

Zone shark is more for safeties....which helps both man and zone.

Originally posted by Cybertron
You are a great agent and I hope you stay. This game is much more fun with great owners/builders like yourself.

You can still build a cover 2 man defense and have man CBs with zone safeties that use zone shark.

Maybe I'll be back after awhile, like i said i got tired of watching power back after power back a long time ago and I think they fixed that after 10 or so seasons, I'll try to make it through this season.

That said I like power and I like skill, I like man, zone , hybrid all of it. It's the diversity. It's just a bridge too far for me, as soon as people get into the math and the effects every defensive backfield is going to be the Seahawks Legion of Boom. I don't really want to see universal favoritism towards one form or another. Just my thought if one form or another gets overpowered, you slowly either give countermeasures or wind back and increase the costs of it. Like I said though I don't run anything here they can do what they want just don't expect me to hang around for something that makes me feel like you have to do it X way to win a title - that's not entertaining to me.

This we had something that was a little overpowered and decided to make it crazy overpowered.

Originally posted by ellix
My CB on Salvo is a Zone CB so he gets to have momentum before the tackle and has 60 Power Tackling. He had 5 KLs last season. How much Power Tackling are you expecting most CBs to get nowadays and why do you think +15 with no %roll adjustment like what Monster Hit gets is going to suddenly shoot up KLs to the moon? There are plenty of 80+ Power Tackling LBs *with* Zone Shark already and their KLs aren't exactly setting the world on fire either. I really don't see how its a buff to Zone and not strictly one for Man and Hybrid. Which, for what its worth, I am building a Hybrid D this coming season and I feel just fine about it.

85 with max conditioning on the corner.

Ditto the safeties - every free safety in this game right now who isn't a hard hitter is going to soon be playing at a disadvantage and that's just really bad realism to me. Justin Simmons, Harrison Smith, Jessie Bates, those are basically the top 3 graded free safeties I'm not sure they have 3 forced fumbles or KL's between them last season that's just not how they play. Are there hitters sure.

But now we've basically made a hard hitting FS the only optimum spread with a huge delta advantage over coverage ...then we are going to spill that over to CBs ...no thanks, I already kinda put up with the eye sore of watching a 4-4 stack matchup against 3 wide without getting roasted now you want me to watch roid monkey status hit the DBs as well..tis a bridge too far won't look like football to me it'll be roller derby.

I mean, again, there are plenty of LBs out there with 100 Power Tackling in Zone - they don't cause massive amounts of KL. They're actually not that common despite seeing them once or twice a game - if you look at a season.

Brett was asking me like a week or two ago in Academy what contributes to KL and so I decided to deep dive the issue. And even teams with insane tacklers don't get that many on any individual. GE and Kvothe have some of if not the most in the game and most of all their players are single digits on the season; with one or two at like 11 or 12 KLs. They just aren't happening at an insane frequency and these are players who have 100 Power Tackling and Monster Hit. Zone Shark isn't going to compare to that. And I know I personally am not going to start sacrificing speed on my FS to get more Power Tackling.

The bigger issue is deeper. You are just skimming the service. The reason zone has so many KLs and INTs is because of the way the game is built. If zone didn't have those things (KL/INT), then zone would absolutely suck.

IRL, the QB would throw more incomplete "untouchable" passes...meaning the ball wouldn't hit the WR in the hands. You hardly ever see passes (in vet) that don't hit the WR in the hands. And WRs are constantly catching passes in double/triple coverage.

I said this before and I will say it again...the underlying problem in many of these issues is the size of the player compared to the size of the field. The players would be about 10 feet tall if this was real life. This makes the field smaller and the windows tighter. There is no room for overthrows or a HB going one of one with a player, without another player a foot away. It is like, IRL, the football field is 75 yards by 30 yards...or something.

IRL, if a 4-4 was run against 3 WR trips, the bubble screen would score a TD on almost every play...because the WR would catch the ball and the closest non-blocked defender would be 10 yards away.

Bottom line...you cannot compare this to RL because of the player size issue.

Originally posted by Cybertron
Exactly. I have 2 S* CBs on LSU and neither will be taking zone shark, even with these changes. They will, however, have gold monster hit.

Zone shark is more for safeties....which helps both man and zone.

Hmm, except Zone Shark procs off of Zone Coverage Awareness. So Man Safeties have to pump both Man and Zone awareness high to use it. For a Zone defense this is great because they're already pumping high Zone awr. Safeties playing in Man D also need coverage skills since they cover receivers often. I guess for Hybrid defenses this is good though

I'm indifferent to the Zone Shark change, but not sure if it's what was needed in a sim where RBs break 40 tackles in a game, or Defenses snag 6, 7, 8 ints. Like Will said, there's a real danger of verging too far one direction. Anyone not running heavy or playing zone are going against the steam at this point.

That said, I really like the field and sprite image generation change.

Originally posted by william78
. No one asked me before hand so I felt free to express my opinion now.

Will, jump into discord and you can be part of the conversation.

Originally posted by BoDiddley
Hmm, except Zone Shark procs off of Zone Coverage Awareness. So Man Safeties have to pump both Man and Zone awareness high to use it. For a Zone defense this is great because they're already pumping high Zone awr. Safeties playing in Man D also need coverage skills since they cover receivers often. I guess for Hybrid defenses this is good though

I'm indifferent to the Zone Shark change, but not sure if it's what was needed in a sim where RBs break 40 tackles in a game, or Defenses snag 6, 7, 8 ints. Like Will said, there's a real danger of verging too far one direction. Anyone not running heavy or playing zone are going against the steam at this point.

That said, I really like the field and sprite image generation change.

When I ran Man, both my FS and S had at least 50 zone awr so I could run C1 and C2 plays...I don't understand why anyone wouldn't build their Man defense without doing the same...You're cutting out some very effective plays if not. I think this change for Zone Shark is a step in the right direction and helps more diversity, but personally I'm still going to stick to using MH on mine.

I have a feeling that the field change might help your issues with passing... also more passing plays with better check downs.

I don’t feel any particular way, but why do all this buffing to passing just to essentially start at 0 on the scratchpad a few seasons later. The game has always been run favoring, but these changes without anything being done about 36 player teams and the broken conditioning system that allows for these teams and their one, do it all, world breaking, HB which is allowing jackasses to field ridiculous teams.

I get people want to be heard, but there needs to be a flow. Instead of addressing other issues after fixing passing a bit (which hasn’t been the case for many) we essentially walked everything back in order to fix something that isn’t really broken (zone can be better than what it is, but there’s a heavy lack of creativity in schematic ideologies and it’s only slowly being developed. People aren’t doing their own thing; there’s a lot of copy+ paste models out right now, and as soon as it spams championship wins it becomes a norm.

It just feels like we’re going in circles to satisfy “majority users”- and by majority users I mean the agents and their multis that are carrying the financial burden of the game.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
When I ran Man, both my FS and S had at least 50 zone awr so I could run C1 and C2 plays...I don't understand why anyone wouldn't build their Man defense without doing the same...You're cutting out some very effective plays if not. I think this is change for Zone Shark is a step in the right direction and helps more diversity, but personally I'm still going to stick to using MH on mine.

I tend to pump my Safeties to 50+ too on Zone Awareness. But still the SP from 50 to 90(Man and Zone) is quite a lot. For a Zone Safety you don't have to invest in Man Awareness at all, and already at 90 Zone Awareness. Not the biggest deal, but my point to GE was that this change helps Zone the most

Originally posted by

I have a feeling that the field change might help your issues with passing... also more passing plays with better check downs.
I like the current field size. I can see the argument to making it wider, but really that would just cause a host of other issues, IMO.

The main problem with passing is that Pass Awareness is rather weak. QBs (with high Pass Awr) should be able to throw better over defenders than they currently do, and lead better. Right now even an elite QB will throw 5 ints against a good Zone defense, and there's really no way to prevent it.

Originally posted by BoDiddley

. Right now even an elite QB will throw 5 ints against a good Zone defense, and there's really no way to prevent it.


There is a way to prevent it. Widen the field.

Originally posted by Cybertron
There is a way to prevent it. Widen the field.

I would think making Pass Awareness more effective would be far easier than widening the field. As a skill it's suppose to determine how well the QB sees the field, so simple improve its ability to read coverage. Pass Tech, Acc, Power, Con, would all still be needed to actually make the pass, but Awareness should be better at knowing where to place the pass to avoid defenders, or not throw into double/triple coverage often

Originally posted by TyDavis315
I don’t feel any particular way, but why do all this buffing to passing just to essentially start at 0 on the scratchpad a few seasons later. The game has always been run favoring, but these changes without anything being done about 36 player teams and the broken conditioning system that allows for these teams and their one, do it all, world breaking, HB which is allowing jackasses to field ridiculous teams.

I get people want to be heard, but there needs to be a flow. Instead of addressing other issues after fixing passing a bit (which hasn’t been the case for many) we essentially walked everything back in order to fix something that isn’t really broken (zone can be better than what it is, but there’s a heavy lack of creativity in schematic ideologies and it’s only slowly being developed. People aren’t doing their own thing; there’s a lot of copy+ paste models out right now, and as soon as it spams championship wins it becomes a norm.

It just feels like we’re going in circles to satisfy “majority users”- and by majority users I mean the agents and their multis that are carrying the financial burden of the game.

This.

Save for the points at the top and bottom. I certainly felt a particular way I believe that feeling is abject frustration like 2 steps forward 3 steps back on game direction. I even liked the "go slow approach" of tweak one thing then another rather than ratchet up any particular area they were doing to improve passing. Then this a 3 stack factor that really just amped the effectivness of zone to rediculous levels.

As for the bottom point, it's not a race but I certainly spend more than enough on teams and players I don't think I've ever gotten a solution proposed approved once and I'm ok with it, so if I'm somewhere in the top 10 over the past couple years it hasn't helped . I never really expect people to do exactly or even close to the solution I propose I think that would be unfair, Bort created the game its his baby so to a major degree it has to match his vision.

Still this kinda feels to me like all our administrative assistants came to me and complained that they didn't get a large enough share of the corporate profits, so I decided to give everyone in the corporation bottom , mid and c-suite a 10% annual raise and then payed for it by laying off 10% of the mid and 20% of the bottom. Then when the reduced staff at the bottom comes to me and complains about being overworked I tell them, "what's your problem you just got a big raise". So yeah some tweaks to pass nice and rolled out slowly then a sudden fluffing of zone that's an absolute stackable meta loving gift that's simply gonna look goofy at somepoints. Just leads me to believe maybe I was reading too much into the changes the last few seasons that it wasn't about perfecting it slowly but surely with some sort of coherent direction and rather just an attempt to appease. In any case if everyone pretty much has to do a thumping safety - I take a pass on the whle experience it's a wrteched idea.