What does everything think about Pass Awareness as it relates to this? I've always thought it was an expensive skill with suspect returns
dredgar
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Originally posted by Raid
It can happen, team can get demoralized before they get the foothold, but I'm sure if you watch the replay the QB will have thrown it over plenty of players heads directly and given them a free shot at the ball. It just more than likely happened after they were too demoralized to make good plays on the ball.
morale is make or break in this game, big time.
As I said, it's not so much OP, especially because of its hit or miss nature, but QBs don't read it properly at all and there is no way to build a player to do so. There is no way to make a QB 'good' against zone. There is just building momentum against it to the point that the opponents don't take advantage of your QB being blind and throwing it right at them, and sometimes even if you plan to not throw much the AI will just do it anyhow and you hit a spiral.
but I have beat them two or three times in a row in this manner I believe
It can happen, team can get demoralized before they get the foothold, but I'm sure if you watch the replay the QB will have thrown it over plenty of players heads directly and given them a free shot at the ball. It just more than likely happened after they were too demoralized to make good plays on the ball.
morale is make or break in this game, big time.
As I said, it's not so much OP, especially because of its hit or miss nature, but QBs don't read it properly at all and there is no way to build a player to do so. There is no way to make a QB 'good' against zone. There is just building momentum against it to the point that the opponents don't take advantage of your QB being blind and throwing it right at them, and sometimes even if you plan to not throw much the AI will just do it anyhow and you hit a spiral.
but I have beat them two or three times in a row in this manner I believe
dredgar
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Originally posted by Bretto007
What does everything think about Pass Awareness as it relates to this? I've always thought it was an expensive skill with suspect returns
And this plays a major impact. The entire game most QB have 30-40 pass awareness. So what the hell does everyone to expect their guys cant hit the open man very well because they cant pass the awareness to check to throw the ball in the right place to avoid the defenders. My QB may only have 35ish awareness but also has quick read so he blows through his awareness and finds the right place. I have seen a lot of ways to beat zone and die from it.
Like myrik said its living and dying by the turnover. There is nothing broke about zone defense. I am seeing a lot of zone defense around vet right now. and I am destroying it every single time. Myriks vet team has one of the best offenses in the game, so people aren't realizing that if he gets two turnovers on you and capitilzes he wins. So guys just build better dots is all I can tell you.
What does everything think about Pass Awareness as it relates to this? I've always thought it was an expensive skill with suspect returns
And this plays a major impact. The entire game most QB have 30-40 pass awareness. So what the hell does everyone to expect their guys cant hit the open man very well because they cant pass the awareness to check to throw the ball in the right place to avoid the defenders. My QB may only have 35ish awareness but also has quick read so he blows through his awareness and finds the right place. I have seen a lot of ways to beat zone and die from it.
Like myrik said its living and dying by the turnover. There is nothing broke about zone defense. I am seeing a lot of zone defense around vet right now. and I am destroying it every single time. Myriks vet team has one of the best offenses in the game, so people aren't realizing that if he gets two turnovers on you and capitilzes he wins. So guys just build better dots is all I can tell you.
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Bretto007
What does everything think about Pass Awareness as it relates to this? I've always thought it was an expensive skill with suspect returns
Always done well with Pass Awareness. My rQB has like 74, and far less for every other passing skill, but gets by with finding open receivers(especially on play action). It also has been effective(in my expereince) with Pump Fake.
The bigger reason why zones seem to get tougher, is that defenders are quick enough on later tiers to actually cover. And knowledge boosts the awareness/ability of players against the commonly used offensive plays. But like Shoota said, zones are vulnerable to powerback inside running.
What does everything think about Pass Awareness as it relates to this? I've always thought it was an expensive skill with suspect returns
Always done well with Pass Awareness. My rQB has like 74, and far less for every other passing skill, but gets by with finding open receivers(especially on play action). It also has been effective(in my expereince) with Pump Fake.
The bigger reason why zones seem to get tougher, is that defenders are quick enough on later tiers to actually cover. And knowledge boosts the awareness/ability of players against the commonly used offensive plays. But like Shoota said, zones are vulnerable to powerback inside running.
Myrik_Justiciar
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Originally posted by Raid
And it's become easier to get INTs since back then. It's fundamentally broken not because zone is OP, but because QBs don't read it properly, so the only way to balance it is to make INTs more luck and morale based than raw skill based.
I mean, the guys who get the most INTs in this game aren't the ones who invest heavily in it, but the other skills to make sure they are in place and ready for the attempt. I've seen guys with 35 and lower in INT get multiple per game and overall are the best CB builds I've seen. Tends to be if you invest in INT you end up spending away the points that actually help you get them.
The single problem in all this is that QBs have no ability to read defenders between them and the person that is 'open'. And the further away that person is from the QB himself, the less likely the QB should be able to think he can throw it over that player's head.
And above all else, QBs who KNOW a play has an OLB shifting to the left for his zone shouldn't throw it directly to where the OLB's zone is all because the OLB is still moving there. If the QB knows the play, he should know that is not going to work. That one would probably be harder to pull off as the 'fix' would be to have the QB read defenders as being where he knows they are going instead of where they are but that could cause issue in itself... It's just annoying to not have any recourse aside from to cheer on my coaches as a player builder against zone.
My guys have significant investments in Int and Awareness to get their picks, so I dunno about dots doing it with 35 int or whatever.
Dredgar pretty much hammered out the rest of this.
And it's become easier to get INTs since back then. It's fundamentally broken not because zone is OP, but because QBs don't read it properly, so the only way to balance it is to make INTs more luck and morale based than raw skill based.
I mean, the guys who get the most INTs in this game aren't the ones who invest heavily in it, but the other skills to make sure they are in place and ready for the attempt. I've seen guys with 35 and lower in INT get multiple per game and overall are the best CB builds I've seen. Tends to be if you invest in INT you end up spending away the points that actually help you get them.
The single problem in all this is that QBs have no ability to read defenders between them and the person that is 'open'. And the further away that person is from the QB himself, the less likely the QB should be able to think he can throw it over that player's head.
And above all else, QBs who KNOW a play has an OLB shifting to the left for his zone shouldn't throw it directly to where the OLB's zone is all because the OLB is still moving there. If the QB knows the play, he should know that is not going to work. That one would probably be harder to pull off as the 'fix' would be to have the QB read defenders as being where he knows they are going instead of where they are but that could cause issue in itself... It's just annoying to not have any recourse aside from to cheer on my coaches as a player builder against zone.
My guys have significant investments in Int and Awareness to get their picks, so I dunno about dots doing it with 35 int or whatever.
Dredgar pretty much hammered out the rest of this.
Raid
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Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
My guys have significant investments in Int and Awareness to get their picks, so I dunno about dots doing it with 35 int or whatever.
Dredgar pretty much hammered out the rest of this.
In the testing I've done personally and the absolute best INT builds I've seen from other players, anything over 50 is not that great in INT and better put into physicals and awareness to get to the spot faster. With DBs tendency to go for deflection unless they have a really high chance to grab the ball anyhow - I saw no real improvement above 50. I'd personally maybe go lower now, and focus more on deflecting as it's just more reliable and happens way more often... but to each his own.
It's hugely situational, and very much more dependent on physicals than anything. Balance seems very important, which makes sense as it will let the player get to position better and 'asses' the pass better which means more INT attempts instead of deflection attempts. Players seem to go for INTs when they have a good look at the pass so getting them that seems to help more than bolstering the stat.
The last test I did was a CB with 55 in all his primary skills, even sprinting. I wanted to see how well he could make up fro low sprinting with surefooted... was impressed kinda. He had a middling 50% catch rate against him - but in 18 games at vet he had 8 INTs - all done with 55 INT and man/zone aware. I would have run more than 18 games on this last test but I was in a hurry to get a test DT out so I could determine some skills I was going to take with my current guys. In general though, it seemed a lot easier to get INTs nowadays and the numbers sure are up the last few seasons.
My guys have significant investments in Int and Awareness to get their picks, so I dunno about dots doing it with 35 int or whatever.
Dredgar pretty much hammered out the rest of this.
In the testing I've done personally and the absolute best INT builds I've seen from other players, anything over 50 is not that great in INT and better put into physicals and awareness to get to the spot faster. With DBs tendency to go for deflection unless they have a really high chance to grab the ball anyhow - I saw no real improvement above 50. I'd personally maybe go lower now, and focus more on deflecting as it's just more reliable and happens way more often... but to each his own.
It's hugely situational, and very much more dependent on physicals than anything. Balance seems very important, which makes sense as it will let the player get to position better and 'asses' the pass better which means more INT attempts instead of deflection attempts. Players seem to go for INTs when they have a good look at the pass so getting them that seems to help more than bolstering the stat.
The last test I did was a CB with 55 in all his primary skills, even sprinting. I wanted to see how well he could make up fro low sprinting with surefooted... was impressed kinda. He had a middling 50% catch rate against him - but in 18 games at vet he had 8 INTs - all done with 55 INT and man/zone aware. I would have run more than 18 games on this last test but I was in a hurry to get a test DT out so I could determine some skills I was going to take with my current guys. In general though, it seemed a lot easier to get INTs nowadays and the numbers sure are up the last few seasons.
Edited by Raid on May 28, 2020 22:32:57
Edited by Raid on May 28, 2020 21:22:34
Edited by Raid on May 28, 2020 21:20:32
Edited by Raid on May 28, 2020 21:14:59
Edited by Raid on May 28, 2020 21:12:47
Raid
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Again, I'm not saying that zone is inherently too strong, that test CB got more man to man INTs than zone, I'm just saying it's not very fun to basically hope you get lucky or not against it and it takes the QB skill almost entirely out of the equation which is just silly. It's extremely disappointing that my QB with literally 70 aware and 3 seasons of building experience on top of gold experience in the play has him still throwing 2 INTs against it when his morale was high when he threw each one.
And both were just bad decisions. If he knows the play, has pretty good awareness, and is riding high on morale, he shouldn't just lob it directly at a guy because he literally doesn't read the play right at all. It means every single bit of play knowledge against zones is absolutely worthless, and teams who use zones should only run a very small playbook of the plays that fool QBs most often. You don't even have to focus much on pass rush as QBs make bad decisions without you hurrying them. Nearly none of the mistakes my QB makes against zone are rushed, that's half the damned problem. He seems to make BETTER decisions against zone when he has to throw it early.
And both were just bad decisions. If he knows the play, has pretty good awareness, and is riding high on morale, he shouldn't just lob it directly at a guy because he literally doesn't read the play right at all. It means every single bit of play knowledge against zones is absolutely worthless, and teams who use zones should only run a very small playbook of the plays that fool QBs most often. You don't even have to focus much on pass rush as QBs make bad decisions without you hurrying them. Nearly none of the mistakes my QB makes against zone are rushed, that's half the damned problem. He seems to make BETTER decisions against zone when he has to throw it early.
Edited by Raid on May 28, 2020 22:08:23
vipermaw82
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Originally posted by Raid
Again, I'm not saying that zone is inherently too strong, that test CB got more man to man INTs than zone, I'm just saying it's not very fun to basically hope you get lucky or not against it and it takes the QB skill almost entirely out of the equation which is just silly. It's extremely disappointing that my QB with literally 70 aware and 3 seasons of building experience on top of gold experience in the play has him still throwing 2 INTs against it when his morale was high when he threw each one.
And both were just bad decisions. If he knows the play, has pretty good awareness, and is riding high on morale, he shouldn't just lob it directly at a guy because he literally doesn't read the play right at all. It means every single bit of play knowledge against zones is absolutely worthless, and teams who use zones should only run a very small playbook of the plays that fool QBs most often. You don't even have to focus much on pass rush as QBs make bad decisions without you hurrying them. Nearly none of the mistakes my QB makes against zone are rushed, that's half the damned problem. He seems to make BETTER decisions against zone when he has to throw it early.
have you tried to change his first read?
Again, I'm not saying that zone is inherently too strong, that test CB got more man to man INTs than zone, I'm just saying it's not very fun to basically hope you get lucky or not against it and it takes the QB skill almost entirely out of the equation which is just silly. It's extremely disappointing that my QB with literally 70 aware and 3 seasons of building experience on top of gold experience in the play has him still throwing 2 INTs against it when his morale was high when he threw each one.
And both were just bad decisions. If he knows the play, has pretty good awareness, and is riding high on morale, he shouldn't just lob it directly at a guy because he literally doesn't read the play right at all. It means every single bit of play knowledge against zones is absolutely worthless, and teams who use zones should only run a very small playbook of the plays that fool QBs most often. You don't even have to focus much on pass rush as QBs make bad decisions without you hurrying them. Nearly none of the mistakes my QB makes against zone are rushed, that's half the damned problem. He seems to make BETTER decisions against zone when he has to throw it early.
have you tried to change his first read?
o The Boss x
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I thought the discussion was about play knowledge here. The skill that allegedly never stops building even once the play is "golded." I see why it sparked the zone teams to grab their pitchforks, but I think the OP was mainly pointed toward knowledge. I think I'm the one that led it off topic so my bad there lol.
In theory, play knowledge should be more effective vs. zone than man because apart from distinguishing who is on 1 on 1 coverage, there isn't much more that play knowledge could do for a QB vs. man to man apart from maybe recognizing the blitz (which I'm not sure if it even does that, but would be interesting if play knowledge of an incoming one-sided blitz would allow the QB to start to roll the other way). In zone, there are literal holes in a defense that the QB should be able to "know" of.
I know this doesn't factor into play knowledge, but if there's one play that is immediately recognizable, it's cover 3 tiger. No other play gives the ROLB an arena football headstart at the QB. Plus the QB has been gold for three seasons now. All I'm saying is that if play knowledge really keeps building, then this play should no longer fool him at the frequency that it probably does.
In theory, play knowledge should be more effective vs. zone than man because apart from distinguishing who is on 1 on 1 coverage, there isn't much more that play knowledge could do for a QB vs. man to man apart from maybe recognizing the blitz (which I'm not sure if it even does that, but would be interesting if play knowledge of an incoming one-sided blitz would allow the QB to start to roll the other way). In zone, there are literal holes in a defense that the QB should be able to "know" of.
I know this doesn't factor into play knowledge, but if there's one play that is immediately recognizable, it's cover 3 tiger. No other play gives the ROLB an arena football headstart at the QB. Plus the QB has been gold for three seasons now. All I'm saying is that if play knowledge really keeps building, then this play should no longer fool him at the frequency that it probably does.
Originally posted by o The Boss x
I thought the discussion was about play knowledge here. The skill that allegedly never stops building even once the play is "golded." I see why it sparked the zone teams to grab their pitchforks, but I think the OP was mainly pointed toward knowledge. I think I'm the one that led it off topic so my bad there lol.
In theory, play knowledge should be more effective vs. zone than man because apart from distinguishing who is on 1 on 1 coverage, there isn't much more that play knowledge could do for a QB vs. man to man apart from maybe recognizing the blitz (which I'm not sure if it even does that, but would be interesting if play knowledge of an incoming one-sided blitz would allow the QB to start to roll the other way). In zone, there are literal holes in a defense that the QB should be able to "know" of.
I know this doesn't factor into play knowledge, but if there's one play that is immediately recognizable, it's cover 3 tiger. No other play gives the ROLB an arena football headstart at the QB. Plus the QB has been gold for three seasons now. All I'm saying is that if play knowledge really keeps building, then this play should no longer fool him at the frequency that it probably does.
Play knowledge gives skill bonuses, it doesn't change the code running the game. Awareness checks can still be failed even with 100 awareness.
I thought the discussion was about play knowledge here. The skill that allegedly never stops building even once the play is "golded." I see why it sparked the zone teams to grab their pitchforks, but I think the OP was mainly pointed toward knowledge. I think I'm the one that led it off topic so my bad there lol.
In theory, play knowledge should be more effective vs. zone than man because apart from distinguishing who is on 1 on 1 coverage, there isn't much more that play knowledge could do for a QB vs. man to man apart from maybe recognizing the blitz (which I'm not sure if it even does that, but would be interesting if play knowledge of an incoming one-sided blitz would allow the QB to start to roll the other way). In zone, there are literal holes in a defense that the QB should be able to "know" of.
I know this doesn't factor into play knowledge, but if there's one play that is immediately recognizable, it's cover 3 tiger. No other play gives the ROLB an arena football headstart at the QB. Plus the QB has been gold for three seasons now. All I'm saying is that if play knowledge really keeps building, then this play should no longer fool him at the frequency that it probably does.
Play knowledge gives skill bonuses, it doesn't change the code running the game. Awareness checks can still be failed even with 100 awareness.
Raid
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Originally posted by Corndog
Play knowledge gives skill bonuses, it doesn't change the code running the game. Awareness checks can still be failed even with 100 awareness.
Then please explain how the meta is low awareness on QBs and yet my guy who has purposefully taken it to 70 and has gold awareness in it still does this so damned much against the one play?
I'd be willing to bet that if you ran 100 games on your test server with the same set up except one team had a QB qith 25 aware and the other with 100 aware, against zone defense they'd throw about the same amount of INTs. Because zone isn't read at all properly.
The QB is still using his man to man logic and reading a guy who is 'x amount of distance' from his guy as open, despite the defender literally standing between the QB and the player.
It's not working, at all, the skill is not helping people avoid throwing INTs against zone, pressure on the QB doesn't matter because he thinks he's making a quality read according to all the info you give him to work with.
Play knowledge gives skill bonuses, it doesn't change the code running the game. Awareness checks can still be failed even with 100 awareness.
Then please explain how the meta is low awareness on QBs and yet my guy who has purposefully taken it to 70 and has gold awareness in it still does this so damned much against the one play?
I'd be willing to bet that if you ran 100 games on your test server with the same set up except one team had a QB qith 25 aware and the other with 100 aware, against zone defense they'd throw about the same amount of INTs. Because zone isn't read at all properly.
The QB is still using his man to man logic and reading a guy who is 'x amount of distance' from his guy as open, despite the defender literally standing between the QB and the player.
It's not working, at all, the skill is not helping people avoid throwing INTs against zone, pressure on the QB doesn't matter because he thinks he's making a quality read according to all the info you give him to work with.
Edited by Raid on May 29, 2020 16:38:18
Myrik_Justiciar
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I know my pass rushing LB on the play has decent intimidation to force QB's to make bad throws...And my coverage LB's are built to capitalize on said throws, I even surmise they might make a good play here or there because they may have play knowledge against said pass play they've seen for 7 seasons. I'm just saying there's an argument that can be made for the defense too, here, not just that the mechanic is broken.
themanbeast123
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Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
I just watched the Lexington vs Southside playoff game. Southside threw for 80% completion rate, zero Ints, 8.9 ypp , and 3TDs in a blowout. That was against an elite vet zone defense.
they just got shutout for the first time since season 43 by the northwest lions playing zone on 57% completion rate, 1 int, 5.4 ypa, and 0 tds in a blowout
I just watched the Lexington vs Southside playoff game. Southside threw for 80% completion rate, zero Ints, 8.9 ypp , and 3TDs in a blowout. That was against an elite vet zone defense.
they just got shutout for the first time since season 43 by the northwest lions playing zone on 57% completion rate, 1 int, 5.4 ypa, and 0 tds in a blowout
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