Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Lokiness
To me it looks like there is no pre-defined blitzing path and they just try to anticipate the HB position before the counter happens and when the said counter happens it's already too late and they are stuck in traffic.

This is exactly what happens.

Try a zone defense...it works like a charm.

Originally posted by TxSteve

It's like a free, automatic 'pump fake' on every single defender.

Isn't that the entire point of running a counter???

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Isn't that the entire point of running a counter???

it is my opinion that it should be some kind of a man awareness check for each player...some would fall for it and sprint full speed toward the faked side of the field -- but others should have at least a chance to see through it.

there is nothing automatic in this game -- why do counters get an automatic successful fake?

Originally posted by Rob.
It would be nice if blitzers didn't get so terribly fooled. That would be my solution for helping to slow those plays down. But it's not just blitzers that get fooled by counters. Zone defenders, man defenders, players in contain and blitzers all get fooled on every single play.

So simply telling people to not blitz counters isn't going to fix the problem either. All kinds of non-blitz plays that should do decent get burned by counters.

The purpose of running a counter is to beat an over pursuing defense. If your defenders are all speed deamons, then they will "get fooled" and get caught up in traffic by over pursing to one side of the field. It is working as designed.

Originally posted by TxSteve
I understand - and I think most of us would agree that Zone is particularly strong against outside runs.


Here is what I'm trying to say: next season we are going to see a resurgence of the counter heavy, queen city offense. Why? because it is picking up a ton of yards against MOST defenses. You are going to see it run particularly heavily against new-ish owners who don't know any better.

Now - it could be that next season we see a bunch of passing teams all running the same 6 passing plays...and we see a bunch of running plays all spamming the same 5 counters....and maybe that could be the impetus for some major change in the game...which would be good. I'd rather just head those things off without spending another season of spam.

It was a Man defense not Zone. Zone defenses are not better than Man defenses at stopping most outside rushes, I don't know where that theory came from. They are great for not giving up big plays, but they don't shut it down in the slightest. Zone is great if you need to be average against the pass and outside rushing, but its definitely not better at man coverage at either.

EDIT: Especially with the new containment system, that completely broken thing sets more defenders up for blocks than anything. I can't remember if it was DA or DD yesterday, but one of the defenders we were playing against read that it was a run to his side very quickly and instantly moved towards the LOS ready to blow the play up. Sadly, there was an invisible fence that he instantly came to a dead stop at and waited, giving the pulling lineman just enough time to completely smash him into the turf.

EDIT #2: As far as new teams spamming the same plays, it already happens! Spamming Passing plays won't be fixed until long passes become harder to catch and short passes become much easier. As far as running goes, any team who tries to spam the same plays over and over is in for a long GLB career or a short one when they call it quits.

Originally posted by Parab00n
Yes, when I sold out to stop the pass against Central with pass blitzes they were very successful with that Trips counter. I was ok with that, they had run that play much less than they passed out of the 3 WR set. Against the Outside Rush defense plays MEM managed a whopping 22 yards on 7 carries.

honest question - I'm pretty clueless about defensive play tags.

Which plays were the man defense plays that held them to 22 on 7?

Is this the right game?
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/226539

Looking at stobie's it shows a play like 5-2 1 DE flats (outside run man defense) gave up 11 rushes for 9.2 each against everything


I'm confident you're right and I'm confused - that's why I'm asking.

Originally posted by TxSteve
honest question - I'm pretty clueless about defensive play tags.

Which plays were the man defense plays that held them to 22 on 7?

Is this the right game?
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/226539

Looking at stobie's it shows a play like 5-2 1 DE flats (outside run man defense) gave up 11 rushes for 9.2 each against everything


I'm confident you're right and I'm confused - that's why I'm asking.

I was specifically talking about Trips counter, but that was 1 of the plays I was refering too. Maybe one of us is completely screwing something up, because I'm seeing those 2 plays called 9 times total against 3 WR set with 2 being inside rushes.

I may be mixed up. I'm looking at DD vs Central playoffs

outside rushes (no off tackle)
including all formations

5-2 1 DE flats - 11 times 9.2 ypc
3-4 man de flats - 8 times 12.8 ypc

5-2 fire 2 sink 6 for 5ypc
qtr 2 sink spy 2 for 6.5
dime 326 2 weak corner fire 1 for 1
dime cover 2 sink 1 for 2

Against only 3 WR sets - I show you only ran zone
5-2 fire 2 sink 6 times for 5 ypc
qtr 2 sink spy 2 times for 6.5 ypc

when I flip it around and scout from Central's perspective - their trips counter was run 5 times for 7 yards per carry -- always against your zone D (sink plays).

It is possible I am just off on another planet and totally confused.

I'm trying to figure out this post:
Originally posted by Parab00n
Yes, when I sold out to stop the pass against Central with pass blitzes they were very successful with that Trips counter. I was ok with that, they had run that play much less than they passed out of the 3 WR set. Against the Outside Rush defense plays MEM managed a whopping 22 yards on 7 carries.


edit: but now I see our difference is probably that you're talking about DA vs central - and I'm talking about DD vs central

Originally posted by TxSteve
I may be mixed up. I'm looking at DD vs Central playoffs

outside rushes (no off tackle)
including all formations

5-2 1 DE flats - 11 times 9.2 ypc
3-4 man de flats - 8 times 12.8 ypc

5-2 fire 2 sink 6 for 5ypc
qtr 2 sink spy 2 for 6.5
dime 326 2 weak corner fire 1 for 1
dime cover 2 sink 1 for 2

Against only 3 WR sets - I show you only ran zone
5-2 fire 2 sink 6 times for 5 ypc
qtr 2 sink spy 2 times for 6.5 ypc


Yea, against 3 WR on DD vsCentral I only ran Zone because I knew it could slow both passing and rushing down. I don't have a blitzer like DA does so that was basically my only option. With DA, I was confident that I could slow any counters or pitches down enough with ZEB that it wouldn't beat me and I knew that it would smash their pass game.

Originally posted by TxSteve
when I flip it around and scout from Central's perspective - their trips counter was run 5 times for 7 yards per carry -- always against your zone D (sink plays).

It is possible I am just off on another planet and totally confused.

I believe we were just talking about different games, I was leaving Central vs DD 3 WR data out because I put in Zone Pass Defenses.

Originally posted by Parab00n
With DA, I was confident that I could slow any counters or pitches down enough with ZEB that it wouldn't beat me and I knew that it would smash their pass game.

ZEB didn't slow the counters. Four rushes for 18 YPC. They just didn't didn't spam the counters which may have been what you were expecting. But ZEB is pretty terrible against that play.

People are saying counters are easy to stop but we have only 1 example of a game where they were actually stopped and hundreds of examples where they weren't.

Originally posted by Absolut Zero
No they aren't. At least not in real football. Counters are used to flow 2nd level defenders into easier blocking paths. It has nothing to do with beating run blitzes. Counters excel against teams that overpursue to what they think is the "playside", but they've always been weak against "backside" defenders either staying home or blitzing from the side the RB intends to go back towards.

It's part of the whole backside contain thing. Let's say you've got a counter to the right, the RT leaves the LE unblocked and instead downblocks the DT. LB's see the RT blocking the DT and suddenly their gap assignments shift "playside" so they have to catch up. That sets them up for the counter. If the LE abandons backside contain and flows down the line, then a counter would be fantastic. If he keeps backside contain (in case of things like QB keepers or bootlegs), then he'll be in a better spot to stop the counter than he would have previously. If the LE crashes down the line (think run blitz attacking the mesh point of the HB and QB hand off), then he'd destroy any HB counter for a huge Tackle For Loss.

Terminology changes for every scheme. But think of flow as your own side of the line of scrimmage. And crash as the opposing side of the line of scrimmage. A run blitz should always be on the opposing side of the line of scrimmage.

I think AZ's post gets to the heart of the issue.

Here's the first question we should be asking about Counters: What plays should they be strongest against? Then are they?

What plays should they be weakest against? Then are they?

That needs to be settled first.

From a Meta perspective, Para is right in that they should be great for balanced teams. So that shouldn't be lost.

I can live with counters being great against a team that is blitzing from the wrong side or the HB makes a guy or two miss. But these plays are a lot like the QB rollouts from back in the day. They thrive on poor defender logic and allow the ball carrier to go untouched until it is way too late.