Warrior General Games

Originally posted by AirMcMVP
Air Raid can be the best team in the game but unable to beat the Stunners. Those two events aren't mutually exclusive. Stuff like that doesn't happen often, but isn't unheard of.

I can see you making that argument if Air Raid couldn't beat a team that was like #10 or something...but we are talking about two teams that are in their own echelon and one is better than the other. If two teams are clearly the top two in the game and one of them can consistently beat the other, they are the top team in the game.

Originally posted by Adderfist
I don't know about that... Just because the defense isn't made to stop teams like his.

Edit* - Are you talking about Air Raid's defense or defense in general?

Fwiw, I think Minnesota is the best team in the game currently. It's the best meta possible. I don't know if it's still possible with the blocking changes going forward, but I bet you can still reasonably pull it off.

You're forced to build a defense to deal with that type of offense. It's very, very build dependent. You have to have good builds to stop Air Raid too, but you can get away with some less than ideal builds in spots, and we'll burn a drive or two per game ourselves with bad throws or drops anyhow.

We probably play them closer later this season witch our chemistry recovered, but it's still a double digit loss for us I'd think. Get a good turnover game where we snag a couple and don't turn it over, maybe we can pull an upset, but it'd have to fall just right.

Its easy to make the case when The stunners have games like this http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/147082, you know the last time Air Raid managed to be held to 14 or less points? season 6 vs Robot Lords http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/98149. they usually have a solid defensive effort most games as well. stunners happen to exploit the weakness most early teams had- run stopping and tackling. I expect some of the season 4 teams start to give the stunners trouble as that's when people actually started building to stop the run

Originally posted by TxSteve
ya that stinks...

as for "anyone that would dispute it" -- I'll go out on a limb and say in spite of the last game, MMA certainly expects to beat us 2 times this season still.

IDK about that, as much as I would like to drum up some entertaining shit talk, big ben just went 60% vs an inactive team and hasnt looked the same all season so far. do not think we have what it takes anymore to win those big games vs a team like stunners or air raid after these changes without a ton of luck. that being said, i would still think we have the best chance of any team off the top of my head at beating the stunners just because our D seems to be your kryptonite (aka holding you under like 40 pts if were lucky lol)

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
Its easy to make the case when The stunners have games like this http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/147082

From my experience with Hawaii, it didn't matter what plays we ran on Air Raid, the defense was always so out of position and bad that storm or anthrax would take it to the house regardless.

Salty, on the other hand, is built to go sideline to sideline and can stop the run fairly well.

The high contracts are really powerful. Maybe moreso in this sim with the morale changes? The way their defense handled a double prime time TD start to the game was impressive. Basically nobody recovers from that ever. For Minnesota, it was like it never happened before the 3rd drive had even reached the point of "showboat sack, miss FG". We typically just maul any defense when we get that type of start to a game. Not sure what type of heart they're rolling with on top of the high contracts, but I'd be surprised if it were around minimum. Feels like TxSteve made a concious effort to get 40+ on everyone, and also has the high contracts. At least on defense. His offense just fuels it's own morale by crushing defenders I assume the same way Romo did with Queen City version 1, and maybe again with version 2 once Chemistry recovers.

It was painfully obvious to observe the way our defense just got devoured on morale, and Minnesota's defense just shrugged off typically devastating blows from my offense. We know we're not built to deal with that type of run blocking and tackle breaking, so once the tide turned in the 2nd quarter, and again after the halftime boost into the 4th quarter, it was GG.

That's why the power rushing meta is still the best IMO. You force a defense to be built like Salty to stop it. Coincidentally, Salty probably is able to pull off what they do because of the high contracts as well. That matchup this season should be really interesting again, though I think Salty's offense is going to be hurting bad most of the season.

I also think Minnesota's got the best pass rushing DEs in the game. They get a better pass rush with only 3-4 guys than most of the teams we face are able to produce with 6. They've got to be something like 90+ PRT and what, 80 footwork or more? Gold Spin Cycle obviously. Silver Showboat I think? Either way, it's enough for them to get the advantage of 8 in coverage, and not really suffer the disadvantage that usually causes where Cleveland has all day to find a wide-open target eventually late in a route.

All the best defenses we face are built like that. You must have DEs that can force Cleveland to throw quickly regularly without blitz support. Pass Rushing DTs are interesting, but they get picked up by the spare blocker more often than a really good spin cyclist DE does.

Our own defense piles up hilarious stats on sacks, but we blitz like madmen and are built to get to the QB. All of which is highly useless against the Stunners

Originally posted by o The Boss x
From my experience with Hawaii, it didn't matter what plays we ran on Air Raid, the defense was always so out of position and bad that storm or anthrax would take it to the house regardless.

Salty, on the other hand, is built to go sideline to sideline and can stop the run fairly well.

If more people were able to see our defensive builds, and just how truely atrociously built to stop the run we really are, they'd be embarassed that we've managed to sit at #1 as long as we have.

We aborted a zone defense experiment in stages over Season's 3-5. It's never been a cohesive plan since other than when we got the Trash Talk LBs and decided to blitz a bunch to pummel poorly built QBs on balanced team compositions incapable of overcoming it.

Originally posted by tezed
Edit* - Are you talking about Air Raid's defense or defense in general?

AR's. I'd contend that RIF handles the stunners better and AR's handles the pass better.

Originally posted by AirMcMVP
Air Raid can be the best team in the game but unable to beat the Stunners. Those two events aren't mutually exclusive. Stuff like that doesn't happen often, but isn't unheard of.

Originally posted by Parab00n
Ok, go ahead and make an argument that Air Raid is the best team this season or that the Stunners are not.

The best team is the one that handles the Meta, rather than an individual opponent.

I think AirMcMVP is right in his comment. I also think b00n is correct in that the Stunners are the best team - and not just because they beat #2 Air Raid. The Morale start changes make it virtually impossible to tackle Power HBs, particularly with Secondary (CB/FS/SS) players.

Ever play the card game Magic? back in the day? I'm talking almost 20 years ago so yes I'm really dating myself.

There was a Deck called "The Deck" created by Brian Weissman. It operated under a simple concept - the only way to beat it was to have a Deck designed to beat it, but that would lose to almost all other Decks. It was clearly the best in the game, but it could be easily beaten if that's what you wanted to do. At a tournament, if there's 100 players and only one is playing "The Deck" there's an incredibly high chance it'll win. But once everyone starts copying the strat, then other players start building decks designed to beat it. The Meta changed primarily because it was so powerful.

I look at Air Raid & Stunners that way. I'm curious if Gal&TxSteve will keep them at Vet long enough to see if some of the later teams bring up Defenses that can stop one of them.

Or if Bortdog just keeps nerfing the shit out of pure O.

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
Its easy to make the case when The stunners have games like this http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/147082, you know the last time Air Raid managed to be held to 14 or less points? season 6 vs Robot Lords http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/98149. they usually have a solid defensive effort most games as well. stunners happen to exploit the weakness most early teams had- run stopping and tackling. I expect some of the season 4 teams start to give the stunners trouble as that's when people actually started building to stop the run

That argument would possibly make sense if these teams hadn't played, but we've seen them both on the field and the last 2 times they've played the result has been 139-72.

Originally posted by Galithor
The high contracts are really powerful. Maybe moreso in this sim with the morale changes? The way their defense handled a double prime time TD start to the game was impressive. Basically nobody recovers from that ever. For Minnesota, it was like it never happened before the 3rd drive had even reached the point of "showboat sack, miss FG". We typically just maul any defense when we get that type of start to a game. Not sure what type of heart they're rolling with on top of the high contracts, but I'd be surprised if it were around minimum. Feels like TxSteve made a concious effort to get 40+ on everyone, and also has the high contracts. At least on defense. His offense just fuels it's own morale by crushing defenders I assume the same way Romo did with Queen City version 1, and maybe again with version 2 once Chemistry recovers.

It was painfully obvious to observe the way our defense just got devoured on morale, and Minnesota's defense just shrugged off typically devastating blows from my offense. We know we're not built to deal with that type of run blocking and tackle breaking, so once the tide turned in the 2nd quarter, and again after the halftime boost into the 4th quarter, it was GG.

That's why the power rushing meta is still the best IMO. You force a defense to be built like Salty to stop it. Coincidentally, Salty probably is able to pull off what they do because of the high contracts as well. That matchup this season should be really interesting again, though I think Salty's offense is going to be hurting bad most of the season.

I also think Minnesota's got the best pass rushing DEs in the game. They get a better pass rush with only 3-4 guys than most of the teams we face are able to produce with 6. They've got to be something like 90+ PRT and what, 80 footwork or more? Gold Spin Cycle obviously. Silver Showboat I think? Either way, it's enough for them to get the advantage of 8 in coverage, and not really suffer the disadvantage that usually causes where Cleveland has all day to find a wide-open target eventually late in a route.

All the best defenses we face are built like that. You must have DEs that can force Cleveland to throw quickly regularly without blitz support. Pass Rushing DTs are interesting, but they get picked up by the spare blocker more often than a really good spin cyclist DE does.


You're close on some - not on others. I've tended to think that maybe the sim has been tweaked at times when it shouldn't have been. Some examples:

- I don't really think counters needed to be nerfed as bad as they were - if you had blitz awareness and high tackle skills it was easy to stop (and I've had much rather seen some new overload defensive plays that would get the defense a 2 on 1 or even 3 on 1 to shut it down)
- I'm not sure about all of these morale tweaks we've had lately - I think a lot of people ignore heart
- I think Xars example of the magic card set is a good and valid one that works both ways (as evidenced by the AA vs Salty game)
- If I recall - we are 1-1 vs Salty to this point
- recovering from the double prime time TD never happens -- but I would guess that the new sim changes (gravitate to 50) played a large role there
- the # of pancakes we get against you (compared to MMA as an example) certainly showcases your lack of run stopping skills in a big, big way.
- I agree - our meta is strong (duh, that's why I built this way) - but we also have a solid defense that can occasionally force turnovers and punts -- and we have who I think is the best coach in the game (Maddencoach) who has handled 50%+ of the coordinating from season 3-8 - and has handled 100% of the coordinating duties for the last 30+ games (he took over after our regular season loss to MMA last season).

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
Its easy to make the case when The stunners have games like this http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/147082, you know the last time Air Raid managed to be held to 14 or less points? season 6 vs Robot Lords http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/98149. they usually have a solid defensive effort most games as well. stunners happen to exploit the weakness most early teams had- run stopping and tackling. I expect some of the season 4 teams start to give the stunners trouble as that's when people actually started building to stop the run

Super valid point. We were indeed held under 20 points one time in season 8....and one time in Season 7 (17 points against the #1 bulls when we were pros).

Then again - we've also hung 50+ on you more times than I can count and you're the best DC in the game....so there's that.

Having played/scouted both, Stunners are definitely a better team tactically than Air Raid. Air Raid is rather boring from a tactical side, they win on dot power. There's nothing wrong with that, but Air Raid is definitely a team that can run on cruise control because of their position roster wise and sim wise. The Stunners don't have that luxury. Power rushing is definitely NOT the most powerful meta.

There isn't a run play you can't stop, assuming you have builds that can tackle and not frequently be pancaked. Hell, even having a superstar FS with wheels + Closing Speed that can also tackle helps you remove a good chunk of the playbook from the opposing team. When you go against a team like Air Raid, you have to win with offense. This is exactly like we saw seasons back with Sunday Funday and even Rusty's Ruins (or whatever you want to name them). It's the pure passing teams edge.

I think there are some creative strategies that can shut down the Air Raid offense because it's so tactically bland (lack of change means teams can take large tactical risks), but being positioned with the superstars they have and the passing sim, they're pretty well set on offense.