Warrior General Games

I don't view what Air Raid is doing on offense as comparable to the NFL. We're not at veteran yet. It is much more comparable to what Mike Leach's Texas Tech teams did in college and now multiple college teams do. 500-600 yards of offense is not ridiculous if your looking at this as college football in seasoned/journeyman. We just don't have any SEC style teams with superstars on defense to stop these big12/pac12 style offenses.

Originally posted by Sardonik00
Back in the day people were posting those lists of most called plays, etc. It'd be interesting to see them now. Anybody?

I actually asked Stobie to look into it - see if his data could show if running has been broken or not (it is so complicated with mismatches...I don't know if it will or not).

He has said he'll try to look at it in the next day or so

Originally posted by Xavori
Except Yorick wasn't before the nerf.

Before the nerf, I ran sweeps both strong and weak, offtackle strong and weak, and variety of inside plays from 2,3,4, and sometimes even 5 WR's.

I had more plays that would get called regularly than most passing teams. I never put up as much yardage as passing teams did on a regular basis.

And yet, I, and teams like mine, are what got nerfed.

Ya, your biggest move was GL Off Tackle Weak 20%/GL HB Blast 20%/GL Rollout Strong+GL HB Sweep 60%. The rest of the formations were all pretty dry.

Originally posted by bhall43
You might think you were pretty all over the place, but you really weren't.

File this under "Things bhall pulls out his a** like so many of his other claims"

Yorick's first 3 drives against Rhode Island pre-nerf:

Big I Off Tackle Left
Goalline HB Off Tackle Weak
QB Rollout Strong
(punt)

Goalline HB Sweep Strong
Goalline HB Off Tackle Weak
Big I Off Tackle (strong this time)
(punt)

Strong I HB Dive
Strong I HB Dive
Strong I QB Slam
Strong I HB Dive (apparently the sim went crazy for a bit on this play which should only be medium priority)
Goalline HB Off Tackle Weak
Goalline QB Rollout Strong
HB Off Tackle Weak
HB off Tackle Weak
QB Sneak Right
(touchdown)

Notice how you're completely wrong about what I set up for my offense pre-nerf?

Originally posted by Galithor
I don't view what Air Raid is doing on offense as comparable to the NFL. We're not at veteran yet. It is much more comparable to what Mike Leach's Texas Tech teams did in college and now multiple college teams do. 500-600 yards of offense is not ridiculous if your looking at this as college football in seasoned/journeyman. We just don't have any SEC style teams with superstars on defense to stop these big12/pac12 style offenses.

Except there are teams at journeyman who put up the same kinds of passing numbers. bhall who's so valiantly arguing against anything being wrong with passing is attached to two of them.

When I look at the caps for the DB's in seasoned and journeyman that I can see versus the QB's and WR's, there is absolutely nothing that makes me think things are going to get better for defenses, and all kinds of things that make me think it's going to get worse as Cleveland, Yukiko, Randal Cobb, etc. all keep pushing their skills versus DB's who are capping out in the 80's.

Originally posted by TxSteve
But the change has been HUGE in my experience...and the change hasn't stopped the GL QB rollout garbage...so what was the stinking point of it?

I would agree that outside runs needed a slight tweak toward the less powerful -- but this change has been huge and really didn't even do what it was apparently supposed to do!

>teams that spam GL QB Rollout are furious, say rushing is complete trash
>same teams say that it is still unstoppable and wasn't nerfed at all heres proof!
>same teams still furious that you can't rush at all

?

Originally posted by Xavori
File this under "Things bhall pulls out his a** like so many of his other claims"

Yorick's first 3 drives against Rhode Island pre-nerf:

Big I Off Tackle Left
Goalline HB Off Tackle Weak
QB Rollout Strong
(punt)

Goalline HB Sweep Strong
Goalline HB Off Tackle Weak
Big I Off Tackle (strong this time)
(punt)

Strong I HB Dive
Strong I HB Dive
Strong I QB Slam
Strong I HB Dive (apparently the sim went crazy for a bit on this play which should only be medium priority)
Goalline HB Off Tackle Weak
Goalline QB Rollout Strong
HB Off Tackle Weak
HB off Tackle Weak
QB Sneak Right
(touchdown)

Notice how you're completely wrong about what I set up for my offense pre-nerf?

its cute that you went through and probably did that manually. You really are making my point though.

Against RI

GL - 50% Strong (Rollout/Sweep), 45% Off Tackle Weak, 5% GL Blast

2 WR - 100% right down the middle (I QB sneak, SI QB Slam, I blast, SI Dive)

3 WR - nothing

4 WR - 1 slam

5 wr - nothing

I don't want to get things totally off course...

but I actually agree with the things Xav is saying.

Simply answer the question: is there any sort of balance right now between passing and running as options for the offense?

In the sim of the last 5 days...not even close!

So why drop the nerf hammer on ALL of running rather than just fixing the pathing on Gl formations? It makes absolutely no sense.

Now the "realistic" discussions are pretty useless...unless Bort or Corndog has said they want realistic somewhere and I missed it..

Originally posted by TxSteve
So why drop the nerf hammer on ALL of running rather than just fixing the pathing on Gl formations?

Because defense doesn't have hard coded pathing vs every play.

It's just kind of a thing they do.

Again you can't claim there's a pancake nerf without at least attempting to remove other variables from the equation. Let's take Yorick for example and go through their games. Now it's hard to get pancakes on a play by play basis without going through each game or potentially attempting to parse some pancake animation in the json so I'm going to do this at a pretty high level.

First thing that struck me was that Yorick had some games with low numbers of pancakes before the nerf. So lets have a look at all the games pre nerf.

Game 1 vs Roch: 199
Game 2 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 43
Game 3 vs MMarmy: 58
Game 4 vs Rhode Island: 116
Game 5 vs Col: 104
Game 6 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 75
Game 7 vs Detroit: 35
Game 8 vs Drinkin: 143

Let's add rushing yards and attempts into the mix.

Game 1 vs Roch: 199, 981.5,
Game 2 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 43, 463.5
Game 3 vs MMarmy: 58, 471
Game 4 vs Rhode Island: 116, 541
Game 5 vs Col: 104, 728
Game 6 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 75, 466
Game 7 vs Detroit: 35, 345
Game 8 vs Drinkin: 143, 592

Well look at that! It would seem that yards and pancakes share quite a high correlation! Now lets look at pancakes + yards after the nerf.

Game 9 vs Tampa Bay: 20, 148
Game 10 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 22, 69
Game 11 vs NY: 53, 285.5
Game 12 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 22, 390

Nothing to suggest here that the correlation between yards and pancakes has changed. Pancakes have not been nerfed players were just more likely to get a pancake on a 10 yard gain than a 2 yard loss. Note that I'm assuming a correlation between yards and play length which is reasonable imo.

Someone mentioned that reverse pancakes have gone up. Couldn't see that in Yoricks games but they don't pass ever so I would make a conjecture that reverse pancakes have increased as teams that have built primarily for the run have had to pass more on 3rd downs.

Edit: Note I'm not trying to make a statement one way or another about these changes just showing that there hasn't been a nerf to pancaking.

Originally posted by Corndog
>teams that spam GL QB Rollout are furious, say rushing is complete trash
>same teams say that it is still unstoppable and wasn't nerfed at all heres proof!
>same teams still furious that you can't rush at all

?

Issue 1: It seems that all running has been dramatically nerfed in non-mismatched games. Am I wrong?

As a non-GL QB roll out runner (this season mostly) - I've seen a huge hit in yards per carry; pancakes; general productivity.

What I'm wondering: was that intended with the fixes?

Also: Is this a work in progress? Is the sim changing behind the scenes on a nightly basis? Are there tweaks ongoing / expected?

Originally posted by TxSteve
Also: Is this a work in progress? Is the sim changing behind the scenes on a nightly basis? Are there tweaks ongoing / expected?

Tweaks should always be expected.

Originally posted by Xavori
Except there are teams at journeyman who put up the same kinds of passing numbers. bhall who's so valiantly arguing against anything being wrong with passing is attached to two of them.

When I look at the caps for the DB's in seasoned and journeyman that I can see versus the QB's and WR's, there is absolutely nothing that makes me think things are going to get better for defenses, and all kinds of things that make me think it's going to get worse as Cleveland, Yukiko, Randal Cobb, etc. all keep pushing their skills versus DB's who are capping out in the 80's.

I'd consider Journeyman still well within the "college" time span for player development.

When I think of the tiers, I've always kinda felt like:

rookie - pop warner/pee-wee
sophomore - Junior Varisty
seasoned - Varsity
journeyman - College
professional - semi-pro/NFL
veteran - NFL

Thus, when I see Air Raid put up nutty passing offense, being a native of Texas, it doesn't phase me at all when I consider what I've seen in Texas High School football or in the Big 12. The high school teams don't pass for 600 yards very often, but they're also only playing 12 minute quarters too.

80+ plays and crazy high yardage at that tier would still be fairly realistic. Now, professional and veteran are what should probably start looking more like the NFL, but playcounts are still apt to be a little wonky. Even then, we aren't built to have stats like San Fransico or Seattle. We should look more like Denver or New England with Brady or Manning.

Originally posted by Thunderoo
Again you can't claim there's a pancake nerf without at least attempting to remove other variables from the equation. Let's take Yorick for example and go through their games. Now it's hard to get pancakes on a play by play basis without going through each game or potentially attempting to parse some pancake animation in the json so I'm going to do this at a pretty high level.

First thing that struck me was that Yorick had some games with low numbers of pancakes before the nerf. So lets have a look at all the games pre nerf.

Game 1 vs Roch: 199
Game 2 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 43
Game 3 vs MMarmy: 58
Game 4 vs Rhode Island: 116
Game 5 vs Col: 104
Game 6 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 75
Game 7 vs Detroit: 35
Game 8 vs Drinkin: 143

Let's add rushing yards and attempts into the mix.

Game 1 vs Roch: 199, 981.5,
Game 2 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 43, 463.5
Game 3 vs MMarmy: 58, 471
Game 4 vs Rhode Island: 116, 541
Game 5 vs Col: 104, 728
Game 6 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 75, 466
Game 7 vs Detroit: 35, 345
Game 8 vs Drinkin: 143, 592

Well look at that! It would seem that yards and pancakes share quite a high correlation! Now lets look at pancakes + yards after the nerf.

Game 9 vs Tampa Bay: 20, 148
Game 10 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 22, 69
Game 11 vs NY: 53, 285.5
Game 12 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 22, 390

Nothing to suggest here that the correlation between yards and pancakes has changed. Pancakes have not been nerfed players were just more likely to get a pancake on a 10 yard gain than a 2 yard loss. Note that I'm assuming a correlation between yards and play length which is reasonable imo.

Someone mentioned that reverse pancakes have gone up. Couldn't see that in Yoricks games but they don't pass ever so I would make a conjecture that reverse pancakes have increased as teams that have built primarily for the run have had to pass more on 3rd downs.

Hey - you're almost certainly much smarter than me...

It seems you're saying: "More rushing yards naturally = more pancakes"

And I'm saying "How can we ignore the likelihood that more pancakes = more rushing yards"

Sorry - I'm multi tasking right now - so may be missing something obvious

and I must strongly disagree that you've "shown there hasn't been a nerf to pancakes" with that. I also have not proven that there HAS been a nerf to pancakes -- my opinion is that the changes have nerfed pancakes -- but I certainly haven't proven it.

Also, just wanted to comment on this (didn't read the whole post because most of it is ridiculous as usual)

Originally posted by Xavori
- Slightly lowered baseline blocking levels

By slightly I can only guess that the Maizehound meant "Nerf Power blocking completely". This change, more than anything, is what really wrecked Yorick at first, and I suspect plays a huge role in TxSteve's observations on pancakes.

It was less than 5 blocking power. If you had 40 blocking power, you lost THREE blocking power.

Kind of hard to take your post serious when you're overreacting, overanalyzing, and making mountains out of molehills.