Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Couchduck
Spread Offense =/= Team with a Rushing QB. - See Nick Foles

As long as you can spread defenders out and have athletes to beat them in space, the spread offense will have success.



Spread offense =/= spread option.

But thanks for playing.

Originally posted by Corndog
So people who are running it are intentionally running a play they don't think is very strong?

Such chivalry.

In what thread have you read that ppl don't think this play is very strong?

sarcasm reach

Originally posted by peeti
Yet, the QB will always outrun the Defense in late quarters, just like the blockers do

I am really talking about the QB Rollout out of GL ONLY, btw.

Idk...... Hmm.... Maybe they are built to do that?

Btw damn near all other QB rollouts are broken because of the awful blocking, and OL letting players run through freely,
which is why I suggested this.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum/thread/5177481

tbh you guys could blame Corndog for this, because had he fixed the Pro QB rollout and some of the other I rollouts that actually give much better matchups then GL rollout, ppl would have run those instead.

But then again its hilarious how it is S4 and 80% of GLB still doesn't know how to defend Goalline.

Originally posted by Corndog
The fact that there's a couple plays that can kind of slow it down, doesn't mean it is balanced while all others get completely destroyed by it. Nor does it make for compelling gameplay.

Corndog,

It's not a couple plays can kind of slow it down. I've seen a bunch of plays that flat out kill it when run against teams that aren't built heavily towards outside running. Even teams like mine that are built for outside running end up with more TFL's than not when playing against good teams. I mean, that is the reason I'm transitioning Yorick to be a more rounded running team.

But here's what I think is the most objective take on is it overpowered or not.

If QB Rollout was overpowered, then teams making use of that play will be significantly more successful than those who do not.

That's seems a fair evaluation for something being overpowered, no?

Okay. So starting there, go look at all top ten ladder or top twenty ladder ranks across all tiers.

There are more HB rushing teams on those lists than QB rushing teams, and there are way, way more passing teams than any type of running team.

Or go look at the HOF list for QB's from last season (because we have nowhere near enough stats for this season). There are a couple rookie running QB's, but again, the vast majority are passing, and the passing QB's put up way more points on average.

Now I do agree that there are a lot of DC's who haven't yet caught on to the fact that you don't want to use any of the actual goal line defenses against a team with a running QB, but that's no different than OC's who take forever to catch on that you don't want to use most of the default playbook passes either.

But I don't think we should be using the lowest quality coaching for evaluating how well a play works, do you?

Originally posted by Corndog
The fact that there's a couple plays that can kind of slow it down, doesn't mean it is balanced while all others get completely destroyed by it. Nor does it make for compelling gameplay.

Well are you analyzing the teams that are getting "destroyed"?

Are they built to stop this play?

AGD2D gets destroyed by SF, but I can't bitch because we aren't really built to stop the pass.

I can guarantee that atleast 50% of the ppl bitching about this are not built to stop these plays,
and the plays they are using to try to stop the rollout in combination with less than ideal builds create a less than satisfactory matchup and they get whooped like they deserve.

When thinking of a play as OP. What exactly is OP about the play? The QB pathing isn't all that amazing. The blocking paths aren't anything to write home about. I'm pretty sure all the usual lead block check fails will occur... i.e WR1 running right past Cb1. SS coming off the edge in front of a TE/FB turning up will go unblocked... etc. People are asking nerf... But what do you nerf?

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
Are they built to stop this play?

No other play in the game can only be contained by a team entirely designed around stopping it.

Originally posted by Corndog
No other play in the game can only be contained by a team entirely designed around stopping it.

I'm pretty sure any run defense will do the trick.

Doesn't it take a squad full of coverage joes including coverage safeties and even coverage LBs to slow down the better passing attacks?
Shouldn't it take run stopping LBs and run stopping safeties to slow down the best run attacks??

Promotes team identity. It kills cookie cutters. And it makes teams and agents really think what are their priorities.

You should beable to be great at one thing, and not good at the other. Or mediocre at both things.

k

Originally posted by Corndog
No other play in the game can only be contained by a team entirely designed around stopping it.

You really haven't tested this, have you?

Yorick is definitely not built around stopping QB Rollout. And with the changes you made to coverage, that, not stopping outside running, has gotten almost all my attention on defense.

And yet I feel pretty confident my team can stop a QB Rollout spam team well enough that I'd win the game against most such teams.

Now, Jampy is right in that a team full of players with no Hold Ground or Break Run Block is just toast, but they'd be toast against any type of running team. Kinda like my team is toast against passing teams because I haven't given up on zone coverage yet...

Oh, speaking of which, one of the fun things about being vocal on this subject is that I'm getting lots of free scrims for Yorick (yay!). And with those scrims I've been testing lots of my defenses.

Yorick is built for zone coverage. Man defenses are more successful. It's not even close.

And if you actually want to see when I think of 'overpowered' you should see the games where I run my stupid cow defense. Running it in a scrim for Maine (journeyman) it held Detroit to 3 points. In a real game with Tampa, it shut out their opponent. In a couple scrims with Yorick it shut out a very good offense in Lincoln City and turned one of the very many scrims I had with Denver which are usually close games into a 71-7 bloodbath.

Now, stupid cow has a catch, and it's a pretty significant one, but since so very many teams fall under the heading of "it'll work", I suspect it won't take long before you hear cries of nerfing it.

I mean, the longer you guys spend typing paragraph after paragraph about how it's totally not strong at all, the less discussion about an elegant way of changing it and and the higher probability of me just saying fuck it and hamfisting it.

Originally posted by Corndog
I mean, the longer you guys spend typing paragraph after paragraph about how it's totally not strong at all, the less discussion about an elegant way of changing it and and the higher probability of me just saying fuck it and hamfisting it.

Very professional of you.

Originally posted by Corndog
I mean, the longer you guys spend typing paragraph after paragraph about how it's totally not strong at all, the less discussion about an elegant way of changing it and and the higher probability of me just saying fuck it and hamfisting it.

That's not what we're saying.

If it wasn't a good play, wouldn't run it. Why do you think nobody runs any of the other outside QB plays? Because they flat out do not work because the offensive line assignments are flat out broken. Fix them, and all of the sudden you'd have people bitching and moaning that all QB runs are too strong for the same reasons QB Rollout gets all that bitching. Not because all QB sweeps would be OP at that point, but because the same teams that can't stop QB Rollout wouldn't be able to stop them either for the exact same reasons.

What we're saying is that it's not any better or worse than a lot of other plays, and it that it's getting a bad rap because people don't know how to defend it and/or are totally not built to stop running teams.

Hey. This play was a 60 yard HB run:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/63615/508065

Should that get nerfed as well just because my guys are really good at making blocks and the HB outran a guy to the edge? Cuz I guarantee you that play and plays like it, not QB Rollout, will be the feature of Yorick by the end of the season. As an added bonus, HB sweeps already have a lower chance of being TFL.

Originally posted by Cuivienen
Very professional of you.

Well, if there's no elegant solution thought of (I don't particularly have one in mind), and all the time is spent with a couple people typing paragraphs about how it isn't actually that strong, then just going to have to "fix it".

Originally posted by Corndog
Well, if there's no elegant solution thought of (I don't particularly have one in mind), and all the time is spent with a couple people typing paragraphs about how it isn't actually that strong, then just going to have to "fix it".

What's wrong with getting LB's/DB's to not rush into the scrum and instead make Pursuit checks and moving down behind the scrum until they can actually see the ball carrier?

That fixes a whole lot of a lot of things that are wrong with stopping running teams.

Just take it out of the playbook. Easy.