Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Deathblade
Also, AD...send PP an invite? He seems like an outsider, but is pretty intelligent and thinks about it rather than just "BURN THE PLACE!!!".

i'm down with ol' PP.

Originally posted by Catullus 16
Originally posted by Deathblade

CPL does abide by the forum rules.
They are somewhat direct, and precise in their personal attacks, which I would say is more lenient, however, most of the other forums are just as bad, but instead of saying "eat a bowl of dicks" they will go on a long 3 paragraph rant, filled with subtle insults.
Porn gets deleted.
Spam gets banned.

i'd say yes and no.

for starters, the opposition (as i guess i'm calling them now) certainly disagree... as do the non-CPL mods that they bring in.

i think the main effect here is that the CPL is active enough and has enough of an established culture, that certain individuals feel completely beset upon... and the mob effect makes them think that the flaming is more asymmetrical than it actually is... especially when CPL mods (not naming any names) actually pitch in as well.

and you've made the excellent point before that it doesn't work for a person to whine about insults when they're dishing out insults themselves. but my counter to that is my old saw that moderators aren't janitors... they're there to moderate what would otherwise be extreme. so a thread filled with insults, where even one person (almost no matter how wrong they are) is something that should be shut down for the sake of GLB.

since the two groups trying to enjoy the league forum have intractable positions on this matter, i still think a segregation is the only permanent solution. not ideal and definitely a little lame... but permanent.

Actually, a lot of the mods don't disagree. But a lot of the mods don't feel bound by the actual rules. They feel free to invent their own.

Originally posted by Azure Dreams
Asheme:
[x] Has been a CPL outsider/newcomer
[x] Has been a CPL insider
[x] Has been a moderator
[x] Looks like Ludacris
[x] Has been not-a-moderator
[x] Isn't retarded
Underrated post.

For srs though, I've been on every side of this octagonal fence (wat). When Dryden came up from AAA, I remember making a post about the CPL forums, and how I was going to be sad to leave AAA and all the good dottalk, so I know how the people coming up feel/perceive things. But, I was wrong. I thought CPL was a bunch of crazykins being meanypants and I was wrong. They just knew before everyone else that the sim was broken, the game was lol, and it shouldn't be taken too seriously.

That's all. I wanted to take the game seriously, so I didn't like CPL. Once I realized for myself just how lol things were, I chilled out. The people on the "other side" (duh duh dunnnnnn) are just trying to cling to the worthiness of the sim. Plain and simple. It all stems from the fact that they take GLB incredibly seriously and CPL doesn't.

Originally posted by Azure Dreams
CPL skirts forum rules and occasionally breaks them. It doesn't exist outside them, though. And when a rule is straight-up legitiamtely broken and proper modoratorial response is taken, guess what?
no one bitches about it.
It's when someone gets a 5 day ban for teh following post by a bag of wangs who came in only to incite flames and troll people behind the aegis of his ill-gotten powers that shit really hits the fan:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2822387

hmmm... i guess i really don't know how to explain this to you, then.

so let's suspend the discussion of who's actually right or wrong here, and just leave it at the fact that the opposition (and their mods) adamantly disagree. i mean really, it's pretty much their entire complaint. nor is it really surprising that those that like the status quo don't see any problem with the status quo (which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong).

further, the notion of creating custom rules (even the feudal/d4mien rule back in the day that was struck down) speaks to the degree to which CPL lives on that edge.

Originally posted by Catullus 16
Originally posted by Azure Dreams

CPL skirts forum rules and occasionally breaks them. It doesn't exist outside them, though. And when a rule is straight-up legitiamtely broken and proper modoratorial response is taken, guess what?
no one bitches about it.
It's when someone gets a 5 day ban for teh following post by a bag of wangs who came in only to incite flames and troll people behind the aegis of his ill-gotten powers that shit really hits the fan:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2822387

hmmm... i guess i really don't know how to explain this to you, then.

so let's suspend the discussion of who's actually right or wrong here, and just leave it at the fact that the opposition (and their mods) adamantly disagree. i mean really, it's pretty much their entire complaint. nor is it really surprising that those that like the status quo don't see any problem with the status quo (which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong).

further, the notion of creating custom rules (even the feudal/d4mien rule back in the day that was struck down) speaks to the degree to which CPL lives on that edge.

They disagree with what? We need more than that than ust saying "they dont think you follow the rules"

You need something more substantive. What about the 20 locked threads from last night that empirically do nothing mentioned on the "against the rules" list?

Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Catullus 16
well, my main proposal was to a segregation... so whichever way works.
i think a GG forum is an excellent compromise, but don't be surprised if the opposition feels the same way you guys do about "their" forum.
But like I said, it is, and always has been how it is.
People that get promoted up, and demand that the culture, community, and forum change because they don't like it is ridiculous. I don't like how USAPL is...dead and only posts are congratulating each other for their excellent dotball tactics. If I get a player in USAPL, should I start demanding that changes are made?

well, that's largely the effect that a completely dead forum doesn't really offend anyone.

the CPL is obviously quite active. and that activity has spawned a fairly distinctive forum culture that no one is seriously suggesting be dismantled.

the question here is how to allow that forum culture to survive without seriously pissing off other people that have just as much right to post.

i mean, here's the very first forum rule, which the CPL flouts with hilarious impunity:
We encourage debate and lively discussion. However, we will not tolerate hate speech, personal attacks, racism, disparaging remarks about others' sexuality, insulting posts, purposeless inflammatory posts, or other actions that degrade the site experience for other users. Please treat other people with respect, including the mods and administrators of this site.

Originally posted by Catullus 16
for starters, the opposition (as i guess i'm calling them now) certainly disagree... as do the non-CPL mods that they bring in.

i think the main effect here is that the CPL is active enough and has enough of an established culture, that certain individuals feel completely beset upon... and the mob effect makes them think that the flaming is more asymmetrical than it actually is... especially when CPL mods (not naming any names) actually pitch in as well.

and you've made the excellent point before that it doesn't work for a person to whine about insults when they're dishing out insults themselves. but my counter to that is my old saw that moderators aren't janitors... they're there to moderate what would otherwise be extreme. so a thread filled with insults, where even one person (almost no matter how wrong they are) is something that should be shut down for the sake of GLB.

since the two groups trying to enjoy the league forum have intractable positions on this matter, i still think a segregation is the only permanent solution. not ideal and definitely a little lame... but permanent.

I honestly think a lot of the hate is extremely exaggerated views of the forum, along with being a little bit uptight and douchey. I mean really...bitching about someone saying fuck? You don't have anything better to do?

I mean, people say "A, AA, and AAA were great forums"...then you go and look, and they get about 10-15 posts a day, and 3/4 of them are filled with subtle insults, and condescending remarks. The only difference is, one is about dotball, and the other is in response to that person bitching about the forum.

Can they really expect to go into a forum, rant about how terrible it is, insult everyone and call them childish, then freak the fuck out when they get told to eat a bowl of dicks? People can come into CPL and get along just fine. Chessey and r87 are fairly good examples. I think most of the people who can't do so either take the internet/dotball WAY too seriously, or have decided that they hate the forum before they even read an entire thread, and either decide that they always hate it, or that they are going to "make a stand" to try and change it...which is usually them trolling and insulting everyone.

Originally posted by r87
Deathblade makes a great point.
Newer users of CPL may not like it (I am a newer user also btw), but the people who have been there for a year should really not have to change because some prissy fellow comes along demanding they act like choir boys.

it is a great point.

however, it's not out of the question for new users to expect that a league forum will behave according to the rules that everyone agreed to.

moreover, when a well-intentioned person happens to make an innocent post, i do feel empathy towards them when they're suddenly flamed by a dozen people for several pages. why wouldn't they get upset? why wouldn't they respond in kind? why wouldn't they start pointing to the rules, especially when (in their perception) the mods aren't upholding them?

this frequent scenario really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Originally posted by Catullus 16
i mean, here's the very first forum rule, which the CPL flouts with hilarious impunity:
We encourage debate and lively discussion. However, we will not tolerate hate speech, personal attacks, racism, disparaging remarks about others' sexuality, insulting posts, purposeless inflammatory posts, or other actions that degrade the site experience for other users. Please treat other people with respect, including the mods and administrators of this site.
I could likely link you 10 threads from the first page alone in USA Pro that do the same.

This isn't really about the rules, cat, it's about certain people disliking CPL's culture of not caring on a site full of care.

Originally posted by Catullus 16
Originally posted by Deathblade

Originally posted by Catullus 16

well, my main proposal was to a segregation... so whichever way works.
i think a GG forum is an excellent compromise, but don't be surprised if the opposition feels the same way you guys do about "their" forum.
But like I said, it is, and always has been how it is.
People that get promoted up, and demand that the culture, community, and forum change because they don't like it is ridiculous. I don't like how USAPL is...dead and only posts are congratulating each other for their excellent dotball tactics. If I get a player in USAPL, should I start demanding that changes are made?

well, that's largely the effect that a completely dead forum doesn't really offend anyone.

the CPL is obviously quite active. and that activity has spawned a fairly distinctive forum culture that no one is seriously suggesting be dismantled.

the question here is how to allow that forum culture to survive without seriously pissing off other people that have just as much right to post.

i mean, here's the very first forum rule, which the CPL flouts with hilarious impunity:
We encourage debate and lively discussion. However, we will not tolerate hate speech, personal attacks, racism, disparaging remarks about others' sexuality, insulting posts, purposeless inflammatory posts, or other actions that degrade the site experience for other users. Please treat other people with respect, including the mods and administrators of this site.

Still arguable. What do you consider disrespect? I don't consider it disrespectful to tell someone to eat a bowl of dicks (pending intent). You have any idea how many times I"ve told my friends/roommates to do that?

Not to mention that that rule is flotued in every single forum on GLB that has more than 10 posts. Moderators flout it regularly. Some admins flout it. So it isn't as simple as any action that degrades the site experience for other users is banned. That's ridiculous and impossible.

Originally posted by r87
Three at last count (?), and all of them are defunct.

true... and that says something about the activity one could expect from a GG subforum.

but it's still worth noting that people have thought it worth their FP to create an alternative to what the CPL currently offers.

Originally posted by Catullus 16
Originally posted by r87

Deathblade makes a great point.
Newer users of CPL may not like it (I am a newer user also btw), but the people who have been there for a year should really not have to change because some prissy fellow comes along demanding they act like choir boys.

it is a great point.

however, it's not out of the question for new users to expect that a league forum will behave according to the rules that everyone agreed to.

moreover, when a well-intentioned person happens to make an innocent post, i do feel empathy towards them when they're suddenly flamed by a dozen people for several pages. why wouldn't they get upset? why wouldn't they respond in kind? why wouldn't they start pointing to the rules, especially when (in their perception) the mods aren't upholding them?

this frequent scenario really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Yes, you keep saying this. I'm still asking for proof. Because that doesn't happen NEARLY as much as people claim it does. It almost NEVER happens.

Originally posted by Catullus 16
it is a great point.

however, it's not out of the question for new users to expect that a league forum will behave according to the rules that everyone agreed to.

moreover, when a well-intentioned person happens to make an innocent post, i do feel empathy towards them when they're suddenly flamed by a dozen people for several pages. why wouldn't they get upset? why wouldn't they respond in kind? why wouldn't they start pointing to the rules, especially when (in their perception) the mods aren't upholding them?

this frequent scenario really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Again...rules are upheld just as much as they are in other forums. The only one that might not be is personal attacks, which is purely subjective, and relies 100% on the individuals threshold. Some people get offended and pissed if someone calls them a turd. Other people, you can talk about fucking their cousin while simultaneously telling them to go fuck a goat...and they send another pic of their cousin in response.

Where do you put the personal attack line? Ban for anything that could be negative about a person? You will always have people that have a smaller threshold than other people, so unless you put it at the bare minimum, then someone will get offended at some point. And asking for it to be the bare minimum is pretty fucking ridiculous.

As for people getting insulted for many pages in their innocent thread...it is usually along the lines of "loldots", and "when will you gut?". It's usually not "I'm going to fuck your mom".

Originally posted by Deathblade
Originally posted by Catullus 16
(note that i'm very much playing devil's advocate, since there's no one else to speak for the opposition in this PF.)
Pretty sure that we actually need to know what the "opposition" wants.
Do they want it solely GG dotball talk, and any negativity gets banned? Bans for poor sportsmanship? I've actually seen people complain about bad dotsmanship. How do you force the community to suddenly start caring, and only be positive about the dots?
As for segregating the forums, that just ends up with one being dead and/or being trolled, and the other one, the "real CPL", dying off.

good point.

my guess is that they don't just want 100% dotball talk... and they even want some good natured smack talk from time to time. i think the main issue here is that the so-called opposition just simply doesn't feel safe posting in the CPL currently. in their perception, they'll just get flamed with incessant inside jokes no matter what they do... so at first they get angry, then they try to reason, then they appeal to authority, then they create alternatives, and then they give up.

i see segregation as the only way to stop that treadmill... and while the GG forum might be dead, i certainly don't see it getting trolled for long (universal forum rules would apply, right?). further, the "real CPL" certainly wouldn't die off... my entire point here is to find a way to achieve the segregation without that ever happening.

Also, let's keep this in mind: the sheer activity level of CPL makes it seem like there ought to be more new users than there really are each season. The VAST majority of users don't even post in team forums, much less the league forum.

So it's not like CPL is driving away this goldmine of new forum activity.