Warrior General Games

Originally posted by jrry32
Originally posted by jdbolick

Originally posted by jrry32


The problem with that is that before a RB gets those SAs, they are useless, that's why agility should give them an inherent ability to fake. My power RB with no SAs can break like 90 tackles in 90 carries but an elusive guy can't use his agility to make people miss until he gets SAs?
I don't know how many times I have to explain this before it sinks in. Yes, an elusive back can create extra yards without ever faking anyone. You see it on practically every punt return. Backs can create yards by moving away from defenders and creating space, forcing those defenders to adjust their angles, something that can lead to those defenders slowing down if they don't have sufficient agility to make the course correction.


I don't know how many times I can explain this to you, a RB shouldn't have to make a juke or head fake move to make a defender get faked out. Having the ability to use your agility to cutback or make quick cuts should also allow guys to be faked(or lose their balance), don't believe me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0DTIuT4Hfs
:43 to :49
Sayers doesn't make a juke, he makes a cutback and then a quick cut and fakes out half of the Colts defense. Why shouldn't a HB with high agility but no HF or Juke be able to make quick cuts that cause defenders to lose their balance?

This. Forget the term "fake" and replace it with loss of balance.

Originally posted by jrry32
I don't know how many times I can explain this to you, a RB shouldn't have to make a juke or head fake move to make a defender get faked out. Having the ability to use your agility to cutback or make quick cuts should also allow guys to be faked(or lose their balance)
IT ALREADY DOES. Seriously, do you just not watch replays? I keep pointing out punt returns because they're the best examples of this. Whenever the returner takes a wide cut away from the defender, and that defender has to adjust his angle to pursue, he slows down in order to do so. How much he slows down when making that cut is determined by his agility, just as the HB's ability to make the initial cut is determined by their agility. This stuff is already in the sim. Like Deathblade said long ago, the real problem is just in how elusive runners make cuts.

Originally posted by TehKyou
I could try that with Nasa Spencer, if we could gauruntee he dived on "dive" plays from the goalline.

I don't think I have ever seen dive 4 yds activate. That would be interesting.

Originally posted by David Stern
Originally posted by kurieg

61 Strength is retarded for a combo or power back. It's not even worth mentioning.

This is what I don't get.

Barry sanders would have been 105 speed 105 agility 80 vision 73 carry 44 str.


Why should super elusive backs need str? With all that agility/vision they should be able to avoid hits, and make plays. If you are saying 61 str is retarded for a hb in this current sim to be productive, i agree, but this is clearly not a case of working as intended, and shouldn't be the case.

I would say Sanders would have been more like 80 speed with extremely high carrying, and more strength than you give him credit for. He broke alot of arm tackles once players were put off balance by his agility. He was also a very secure ball carrier in that he rarely fumbled and ran well in traffic.

I don't think he had great pure speed.

Originally posted by Bukowski
Originally posted by David Stern

Originally posted by kurieg


61 Strength is retarded for a combo or power back. It's not even worth mentioning.

This is what I don't get.

Barry sanders would have been 105 speed 105 agility 80 vision 73 carry 44 str.


Why should super elusive backs need str? With all that agility/vision they should be able to avoid hits, and make plays. If you are saying 61 str is retarded for a hb in this current sim to be productive, i agree, but this is clearly not a case of working as intended, and shouldn't be the case.

Exactly.


You know nothing of Barry Sanders if you think this for even a moment.

Originally posted by bhall43
but they have carrying and cover up...i thought this was established already...

people seem to be playing 2 sides here...kurieg is saying strength is needed to hold on to the ball...but others are saying its not...but yet 48 strength is needed...but strength isnt a part of it...

We are on the same page, I am just arguing with a brick wall right now.

Originally posted by Phil Jackson
Originally posted by bhall43

no...you have been saying 48 cap...and i ask...WHY?

to cater to kurieg. I honestly believe a true elusive HB shouldn't even need that. But to avoid fumbles I guess?

even though I think carrying + coverup should be the cure to that not having even softcapped str

That's what I'm saying.

Why should a RB need 2 high attributes + an SA to hold on to the ball?

Originally posted by kurieg
Oh gawd no, if you think Barry Sanders is 44 STrength you're simply not allowed to ever comment on this again.

The man had insanely powerful legs and a strong upper body, and could hold onto the ball even when gang tackled.

Football is a game of inches.

And poor Barry only had a few dozen

Originally posted by bhall43
Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt

So they don't fumble instantly - or every time they touch the ball. There needs to be at least some Strength in the build IMO.

but they have carrying and cover up...i thought this was established already...

people seem to be playing 2 sides here...kurieg is saying strength is needed to hold on to the ball...but others are saying its not...but yet 48 strength is needed...but strength isnt a part of it...

I never said Cover Up. Someone else threw that in there. Yes - they would have a lot of carrying. At least 68. Maybe more 73?

Originally posted by blln4lyf
They should be viable options in limited roles, like a Reggie Bush. Can't get 30 touches a game but can be a homerun threat with his 5-7 touches. Getting big morale hits because of the strength when getting a Monster Hit on them makes sense to put them in their proper role.

the more strength, the less the morale hit taken?

LOL, I wasn't trying to start an argument over what constitutes an elusive back, but I guess I did just that by asking for one. Now do you see what I mean about being hard to sort through the arguing to get the meat?

Deathblade (or somebody), maybe you can sum up the results for me later so I can try some stuff? I'm going to go eat some foods.

48 str should be PLENTY for a elusive hb.

As soon as you start going to the 2nd cap, you become a power back. I am sick of being forced to 2nd cap str on elusive hb's because it has become the "norm"

No strength = Garrett Wolfe = out of league

Originally posted by Bukowski
That's what I'm saying.

Why should a RB need 2 high attributes + an SA to hold on to the ball?

61 is not High.

Build a 5 68+ attribute LB and come talk to me. You're lost and clueless.