Warrior General Games

Originally posted by David Stern
Originally posted by kurieg

61 Strength is retarded for a combo or power back. It's not even worth mentioning.

This is what I don't get.

Barry sanders would have been 105 speed 105 agility 80 vision 73 carry 44 str.


Why should super elusive backs need str? With all that agility/vision they should be able to avoid hits, and make plays. If you are saying 61 str is retarded for a hb in this current sim to be productive, i agree, but this is clearly not a case of working as intended, and shouldn't be the case.

Exactly.

Originally posted by jdbolick
Originally posted by jrry32

The problem with that is that before a RB gets those SAs, they are useless, that's why agility should give them an inherent ability to fake. My power RB with no SAs can break like 90 tackles in 90 carries but an elusive guy can't use his agility to make people miss until he gets SAs?
I don't know how many times I have to explain this before it sinks in. Yes, an elusive back can create extra yards without ever faking anyone. You see it on practically every punt return. Backs can create yards by moving away from defenders and creating space, forcing those defenders to adjust their angles, something that can lead to those defenders slowing down if they don't have sufficient agility to make the course correction.


I don't know how many times I can explain this to you, a RB shouldn't have to make a juke or head fake move to make a defender get faked out. Having the ability to use your agility to cutback or make quick cuts should also allow guys to be faked(or lose their balance), don't believe me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0DTIuT4Hfs
:43 to :49
Sayers doesn't make a juke, he makes a cutback and then a quick cut and fakes out half of the Colts defense. Why shouldn't a HB with high agility but no HF or Juke be able to make quick cuts that cause defenders to lose their balance?

Originally posted by jdbolick
Originally posted by Nuge20

leg strength =/=GLB strength
You think Brandon Jacobs is breaking tackles because of his biceps?

no, but i also know that pure leg strength =/= tackle breaking. If Barry Sanders was running at me and tried to truck me id think i could put up a fight (hed probably go through me though) but if Jacobs was running at me id have no chance. upper body strength plays a role too.

Originally posted by foofighter24
It does seem odd that agility plays no role in jukes and fakes.

What made you come to this conclusion?

The fact that it says it needs agility in the description of the SA?

Originally posted by Robbnva
not an HB, but jumping doesn't work like it should

I totally agree. I wish HBs needed jumping to run over pancaked defenders.

Originally posted by Phil Jackson
Thats exactly what I have been saying, Kurieg is basing his argument from THE CURRENT SIM, and not how an elusive HB should LOGICALLY be built.

no...you have been saying 48 cap...and i ask...WHY?

Originally posted by blln4lyf
I honestly think he just doesn't get it, or that the sim has led him to believe that it is working as intended. The sim has had faking as only possible through a SA forever that it seems like he does not grasp that even a 4 month old baby can attempt a fake and that it should be inherent at a small effectiveness.
A 4 month old baby cannot attempt a fake. And if you give an inherent ability to attempt fakes, then you also have to implement consequences for failing those attempts. If you or I went out to the nearest field and tried to fake someone out, we'd not only come to a stop when doing so, but most likely fall on our asses. Please don't start with the "just doesn't get it" crap, especially after what we've been through today. If you don't like my explanation and want to continue disagreeing, that's fine, but nothing you have said is difficult to grasp, it just isn't a compelling argument.

Originally posted by blln4lyf
Originally posted by jrry32

Originally posted by jdbolick


Instead of adding an inherent ability to fake, what about if Head Fake and Juke could be affected by agility itself? Maybe it could work in conjunction with the carrying attribute, or perhaps it could be an "or" situation where the highest of the two is used for the roll. That and continued improvement of pathing would make agility a lot more attractive.

The problem with that is that before a RB gets those SAs, they are useless, that's why agility should give them an inherent ability to fake. My power RB with no SAs can break like 90 tackles in 90 carries but an elusive guy can't use his agility to make people miss until he gets SAs? Does that not seem messed up? Strength gives you an inherent ability to break tackles but agility shouldn't give you an inherent ability to fake guys?

I honestly think he just doesn't get it, or that the sim has led him to believe that it is working as intended. The sim has had faking as only possible through a SA forever that it seems like he does not grasp that even a 4 month old baby can attempt a fake and that it should be inherent at a small effectiveness.

Firstly, what is really the difference between have a very low fake chance, and no chance? No enough to get worked up over.

Second of all, you can get 1 point in all the fake SAs with your custom gear.

Is this really worth all the fuss you are making over it? Conceptually i can see your point...in terms of how much it actually matters...very little I think? Unless for some reason you want this to be a strong effect, in which case that's a whole different discussion.

Originally posted by Phil Jackson
Originally posted by Bukowski

Do you have an Elusive Back? No, right?

He clearly doesn't understand how to build oneOriginally posted by kurieg

So I haven't coached a pile of them?

Virtually every check in this game is a multi-attribute one aside from maybe Vision checks.

48 Str, 68 +carry and coverup SHOULD BE PLENTY for an ELUSIVE HB. They should clearly still fumble, but not be fumble machines.

They should be viable options in limited roles, like a Reggie Bush. Can't get 30 touches a game but can be a homerun threat with his 5-7 touches. Getting big morale hits because of the strength when getting a Monster Hit on them makes sense to put them in their proper role.

Originally posted by AngryDragon
Originally posted by Timetoshine-Beta

I'm going to hurdle over the defense right into the endzone.

we need a jumpingback. Anybody ever had 100 jumping?

I could try that with Nasa Spencer, if we could gauruntee he dived on "dive" plays from the goalline.

Originally posted by Bukowski
Originally posted by blln4lyf

Originally posted by Bukowski


Of course someone that doesn't build RBs, would expect them to need ridiculous attributes, just to not fumble the damn ball.

If I had to guess, sounds like a Defensive Coordinator, tbh.

I think kurieg is a smart man, but him thinking like a Defensive Coordinator crosses my mind a lot when I see him discussing things in these threads.

I'm sure he is a smart guy, but common sense doesn't always apply to the intelligent.

That is true as well.

Oh gawd no, if you think Barry Sanders is 44 STrength you're simply not allowed to ever comment on this again.

The man had insanely powerful legs and a strong upper body, and could hold onto the ball even when gang tackled.

Football is a game of inches.

Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt
So they don't fumble instantly - or every time they touch the ball. There needs to be at least some Strength in the build IMO.

but they have carrying and cover up...i thought this was established already...

people seem to be playing 2 sides here...kurieg is saying strength is needed to hold on to the ball...but others are saying its not...but yet 48 strength is needed...but strength isnt a part of it...

Originally posted by bhall43
no...you have been saying 48 cap...and i ask...WHY?

to cater to kurieg. I honestly believe a true elusive HB shouldn't even need that. But to avoid fumbles I guess?

even though I think carrying + coverup should be the cure to that not having even softcapped str

Originally posted by blln4lyf
Originally posted by TyrannyVaunt

Originally posted by kurieg


As long as you take a massive energy and morale hit every time you get Big Hit by a triple digit strength D-linemen, then I guess I"m ok, though, with 48 Strength.

Ding, Ding, Ding. I agree. Anytime you get Monster Hit or Big Hit... It should have a penalty. Especially if you build a freaking Reggie Bush. But that is the trade off.

This should not be implemented over night... It needs to be tested.

Yeah, they should be viable but also clearly not a every down back.

I agree. Reggie Bush and Eric Metcalf were far from every down backs.

And to the person that asked what kind of catching... Very little. Metcalf wasn't running Streak routes. He was typically catching the ball at or near the LoS. I don't think you need much catching to do that successfully? No?