Warrior General Games

Originally posted by BobbyCox4Pres.
Have you seen the Regional Pros lately? They have more quality teams than half the NPL's 192 remaining teams.. Having 6 NPL's sounds so much more competitive.. That's not to mention all the farm teams coming up.. The Hemispheres will just turn into another WL and you will have the same 16 teams competing year in year out.. One big organizational orgy... Change promotion..

Yes I've seen the Regional Pros. I GM a level 56/59 team that is in a Regional Pro elite, and have a level 56 player on another regional Pro elite team. I have a player in decline on another Regional Pro team.


There are some Regional Pro teams that are better than some National Pro teams, but it is the National Pro teams that either had huge turn over and weren't able to recruit, or teams that are in the process of re-doing their roster with younger players, or teams that basically went CPU.

The thing is no promotion system is going to stop that.

In any event, there are 0 regional Pro teams that are capable of competing with the top National Pro teams. Most of the regional Pro elite rosters I've looked at couldn't even contend for a playoff spot in National Pro as crappy as it is.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Originally posted by gocincinnati

I'm fine with that. It'll sort itself out, naturally. Because instead of all the top talent being funneled into a 32-team league, it will once again be spread out across all Pro leagues.

I do kinda like the idea of some kind of World Tournament, though, and now they have the mechanism in place to easily do that with -- which they didn't before.

Talent was never spread out across all Pro leagues, and when we had 8 Pro leagues with no WL most of the Pro leagues were dominated by 4-5 teams season after season. In some cases leagues were dominated by 2-3 teams. And I'm not talking about per conference, I'm talking about per league.

Specious argument. You know as well as I do the talent base has changed dramatically since then. It's a whole different ballgame now.

Originally posted by TaySC
Exactly.

If you take a big "name" team, they will still recruit better than most (what little recruiting they actually do) regardless of whether they are WPL or just in some regular Pro league.

At least it's a level playing field. If a given team or teams do a better job marketing themselves, i.e. recruiting, bully for them. That's kinda how it's supposed to work.

Otherwise you might as well just have a draft. Ugh.

Originally posted by gocincinnati

Specious argument. You know as well as I do the talent base has changed dramatically since then. It's a whole different ballgame now. .

The dynamic has changed because of the WL.

Before WL you had tons of agents that only wanted to play in US region. There were many agents that would rather put their players on a US AA team than a Pro team from another region.


The talent base hasn't really changed that much either. Just the dynamics. Now instead of there being 4 top teams in each league, those teams are in 1 league. And even if you spread them back out, one league will eventually gain prestige as the best, and the top players will want to gravitate toward that league.

Originally posted by gocincinnati
At least it's a level playing field. If a given team or teams do a better job marketing themselves, i.e. recruiting, bully for them. That's kinda how it's supposed to work.
.

Most top teams don't recruit. They farm most of their dots. The majority of those are also either part of large networks or you have some teams that are single agent or 2-5 agent teams. If you think recruiting will get easier for regular National Pro teams because the WL is disbanded, you are fooling yourself.

The network stranglehold on players has gotten so bad that Alpine doesn't even have a full roster right now.

networking will kill off the rest of the GLB

There will be nothing but network teams left.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard

Right now you have

Minors - Most people think feel this is working right now with the elite/competitive/regular structure right now up until regional Pro (nothing changes here. Competition remains the same)

Regional Pro - this is a huge mess right now because they haven't figured the best way to deal with it.

National Pro - currently highly non competitive. 2-5 teams from each conference have a legit shot a championship and 6-10 teams in each conference can't even stay within 40 pts of the teams that have a shot. Usually at least 5 teams have trouble staying within 100 pts of the top teams in the conference.



Take the top 64 non WL teams (the ones that are beating the crap out of the other 192 pro teams) and put them in a league together.

Then you get more competition at that level and at the National Pro level.

Those 64 teams are about even competition. They have a chance to win or lose just about any SIM. Of course some teams will be better than others, but you aren't going to have teams running through the conference winning 12 games by 50+ pts.

You take the top teams out of National Pro, and you have more teams that are able to compete with each other at that level. The teams that were running rough shod over the rest of the league are now gone.

You put a buffer between WL and what is now a watered down National Pro. WL teams demote to a league where they will still face competition. They won't be as likely to auto promote back to WL in the yo-yo fashion you see going on right now with many teams.



Hemispheres may not be the answer. However, if you don't do hemispheres, then the number of National Pro leagues needs to be cut down. Competition at the national pro level is a joke, and there are no regional Pro teams that are going to make competition better for the top 2-5 teams in each national pro conference.






Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Talent was never spread out across all Pro leagues, and when we had 8 Pro leagues with no WL most of the Pro leagues were dominated by 4-5 teams season after season. In some cases leagues were dominated by 2-3 teams. And I'm not talking about per conference, I'm talking about per league.

Originally posted by TaySC
Exactly.

If you take a big "name" team, they will still recruit better than most (what little recruiting they actually do) regardless of whether they are WPL or just in some regular Pro league.




Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Yes I've seen the Regional Pros. I GM a level 56/59 team that is in a Regional Pro elite, and have a level 56 player on another regional Pro elite team. I have a player in decline on another Regional Pro team.


There are some Regional Pro teams that are better than some National Pro teams, but it is the National Pro teams that either had huge turn over and weren't able to recruit, or teams that are in the process of re-doing their roster with younger players, or teams that basically went CPU.

The thing is no promotion system is going to stop that.

In any event, there are 0 regional Pro teams that are capable of competing with the top National Pro teams. Most of the regional Pro elite rosters I've looked at couldn't even contend for a playoff spot in National Pro as crappy as it is.

Okay, I came over here in an attempt to Save the Pro Leagues, however there are good points being made to go with the Hemisphere and feeder league organization that Rage is referring to.

We are pretty much doing what the Hemisphere/Feeder or National Elite/Competitive (depends on what you call it) by having tournaments and league challenges. Every season teams have to go outside their leagues just to get competition because there is none within the National Pro leagues themselves. There are the top teams in every league that just dominate the rest of the league and then beat each other up with only 1 team making out to the WL, every now and then that team can hang up there, but usually they just come back down and it starts over again. The truly ELITE teams go there and stay as they should. This is still going to happen in whatever system is in place, but by breaking down the National Pro into more of a Elite/Competitive structure, now you have more competitive leagues to go through along the way so when a team does make it to the WL they are ready.

My team has been in EE Pro since S10 so we are going into our 13th EE Pro season. YES, we have built some rivalries, but not with the WL teams that passed through EE Pro on the way and stayed in the WL, but with the teams that stay at the top of EE Pro or are the yo-yo teams that bounce back and forth. These teams would be in the National Elite or Hemisphere league with the proposed structure and the competition would be really good and make for an exciting season. National Pro is at the point now where if you are near the top you don't gameplan for the regular season, it's cruise control to 11-13 wins every season and you are forced to play in tourneys just to have more competitive games. If there was a Hemisphere league this would not be possible and if a team did do that then it would deserve to be in the WL. Arkadak has had 12+ wins since S14 in EE Pro so we have been very successful, but haven't got over the WL hump and to be quite honest the regular season is boring with the exception of a game here or there against a rivalry team, but if the National Pro teams were condensed as it is being suggested then that would make the regular seasons actually mean something and would really test the teams that would be promoted to the point that they would belong in the WL.

So yes, I do love the rivalries, the rivalries are built on competition and this proposed structure would make for better competition and the competition would improve the quality of the teams as you move up levels.

Rage continue to say it best...

Only thing I differ with him is preserving the 8 pro regions (national pro competitive) instead of contracting to 6. If there is one thing that will stop this idea it will be people rioting to save their pro region. Why do insist on 6, especially when the bottom of the 8 Pro regions are just glorified regional pro teams anyway? Just take out the top Pro teams... form hemispheres (national pro elite)... restock 8 pro regions (national pro competitive) with the best of regional pro which in turn contracts regional pro somewhat and should help to solve that mess somewhat.

Originally posted by BobbyCox4Pres.


Have you seen the Regional Pros lately? They have more quality teams than half the NPL's 192 remaining teams..

So you are capable of understanding that the disparity between top NPL teams and bottom NPL teams is huge!!! The quality teams in regional pro are more on the level of the bottom of NPL and it makes sense to combine them while removing the top NPL teams for the hemisphere league.

Originally posted by beenlurken
Originally posted by beenlurken

Originally posted by beenlurken

I would be willing to bet the majority of those voting against this is solely because they want to preserve regional affiliation.

No new leagues would have to be created... just resort so Pro playoff teams form the hemisphere leagues and the bottom half of Pro combines with regional pro elite (current regional pro elite contracts)

WL

Northern Hemisphere (elite 1)
Southern Hemisphere (elite 2)

Northern Hemisphere Feeder leagues
USAPL
CPL
EEPL
WEPL

Southern Hemisphere Feeder leagues
OPL
APL
SAPL
SEAPL


Make that work and everyone is happy!!

This template is still the best option so far. With the above you eliminate some of the current regional pro leagues by combining the worst of Pro and the best of regional pro. No new leagues need to be created to do this.

Obviously "Pro" is not as strong but the competitiveness should be much improved. Its the only way to have the best of both worlds (no other way to preserve the 8 regions yet improve league competitiveness).



This isn't much of a change from the original rework I gave Catch22 at the beginning of this thread, except it makes things worse....You can't do a Northern/Southern because if you put USA, Can, and both Europes in the same hemisphere, then you get a real bottleneck on one side and more teams are forced out of a region they want to be in, and is just one more cause of discontent.

This would be the better way to arrange it:

Just go to 2 Elite leagues and 8 Competitive, and name them this:

Pro Elite #1 - Western Hemisphere
Pro Elite #2 - Eastern Hemisphere

These leagues feed the Western Hemisphere:

Pro Competitive #1 - USA
Pro Competitive #3 - Canada
Pro Competitive #5 - South American
Pro Competitive #7 - Carribean

These leagues feed the Eastern Hemisphere:

Pro Competitive #2 - Western Europe
Pro Competitive #4 - Eastern Europe
Pro Competitive #6 - Oceania
Pro Competitive #8 - African

Catch22 seemed to think that 8 feeders was too many, so in that case you just drop the #7 and #8 leagues.

Originally posted by CoachCoughlin
networking will kill off the rest of the GLB

There will be nothing but network teams left.

If you forced getting rid of networks, all you would do is make it so even less players are created (I know I wouldn't have as many as I do), and less teams....and in the situation GLB is in that would make matters worse, NOT better.

if you go with 6 feeders

Colonial League fed by
South America
North America
Oceania



Empire League fed by
Europe
Asia
Africa

How about making the Elite Leagues named Semi World League.

Originally posted by Raiders12
This isn't much of a change from the original rework I gave Catch22 at the beginning of this thread, except it makes things worse....You can't do a Northern/Southern because if you put USA, Can, and both Europes in the same hemisphere, then you get a real bottleneck on one side and more teams are forced out of a region they want to be in, and is just one more cause of discontent.

This would be the better way to arrange it:

Just go to 2 Elite leagues and 8 Competitive, and name them this:

Pro Elite #1 - Western Hemisphere
Pro Elite #2 - Eastern Hemisphere

These leagues feed the Western Hemisphere:

Pro Competitive #1 - USA
Pro Competitive #3 - Canada
Pro Competitive #5 - South American
Pro Competitive #7 - Carribean

These leagues feed the Eastern Hemisphere:

Pro Competitive #2 - Western Europe
Pro Competitive #4 - Eastern Europe
Pro Competitive #6 - Oceania
Pro Competitive #8 - African

Catch22 seemed to think that 8 feeders was too many, so in that case you just drop the #7 and #8 leagues.



So you want to eliminate SEAPL and create the "Caribbean" league just so you can have East/West instead of North/South. I only suggest N/S because it actually works out better (geographically)... ultimately I could care less.

Also please explain how my grouping would cause any more of a bottle neck than yours?

Lastly, the biggest hurdle to this idea is eliminating everyones precious regions. Personally, I would not be against contracting to six but a large enough group to shut this down would be.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
if you go with 6 feeders

Colonial League fed by
South America
North America
Oceania



Empire League fed by
Europe
Asia
Africa

I am totally cool with that... but there is a huge group of WEPL, EEPL, USAPL and CPL loyalist that will vote against just to preserve their region. Why eliminate (yes you are combining... but in doing so you are eliminating their identity) some and not others? That is the attitude this would get.

What are the objections to keeping all 8?

Hey hazy. I am one of those fellas that -1'd in the voting. Here's why. I'll try not to be too "tl;dr" but it'll be worth the read. Fwiw I agree that something needs to be changed at the National Pro levels, but the suggestion in the OP is absolutely not the way to do it.

The Problem: the whole point of this thread/suggestion in the OP is that natty pro leagues are not competitive and as such something should be done. However, in order to solve a problem, you need to looks at the causes of it, and not just try to tack on a solution without some critical thinking.

The Causes. Why do Pro leagues lack parity? It is a combination of a few things. Too many National Pro leagues/teams is a big part. The fact that hugely under-leveled teams are promoted to natty pro and have zero chance to compete is another big one.

Too many National Pro teams

There simply are too many Pro leagues to have them all be competitive. To illustrate this point I am going to look at the 16 National League conference champs from last season (WL promotees) and see how many games were either lost, or won by 60 points or less in conference (ignoring week 1). This will give a pretty lax estimation of the number of teams that are competitive in natty pro.

Competitive games
APL: African Predators 11/15
Canton Immortals 1/15
CPL: QCBC 6/15
Dallas Longhorns 11/15
EEPL: Black Hand GoW 10/15
Sofia Spiders 7/15
OPL: Devonport Devils 11/15
EEA 8/15
SAPL: Mayan Prophecy 10/15
Death Valley 8/15
SEAPL: New York Empire 9/15
Garudas 7/15
USAPL: Chicago Hedgehogs 6/15
ATKM 11/15
WEPL: Ice and Fire 12/15
Black Sea Squall 10/15
Demoting WL teams 16/16.

So if we add all the "competitive teams, we are left with.... 154 teams. Divide that by 32 teams in a league and we are left with 4.8 competitive national pro leagues. Since 60 points was damn relaxed as far as blowouts, I would contend that rounding down to 4 is better than having that ugly 5.

Making 2 "elite pro' and 6 "shitty pro" is a horrible way to solve this problem, and league reduction is a MUCH better way.


Underleveled teams promoted to Natty Pro who have no choice but to be uncompetitie

Lisbon Crusaders: http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=5940

This team went 8-8 in Regional Pro Elite #3 last season, and lost in the first round of the playoffs 97-21. They were then promoted to EEPL this season. Their roster is mostly made up of d319 players that have boosted to L59/60. Up against teams of L72 players they have zero choice except to lose in blowout games. A lot of Regional Pro promotes are similarly underleveled teams who are forced to get blown out for a season or two.

d359 (which will be players at L64/65 to start the season) needs to be the absolute lowest level players that are promoting to play against L72's. Since the highest capped league currently is d279, teams then spend they d319 season in Regional Pro, and then promote to National Pro with a roster mainly made up of d359 players.

Adding another level actually compliments the reduction to 4 natty Pro leagues, because those other 4 leagues of teams will get thrown back to regional Pro. So instead of having 19 regional pro leagues, we add another capped level which'll keep regional pro at a similar number of teams.

And to anyone complaining about adding an extra level to the promotion system, please realize that your first season in National Pro you are gonna get absolutely reamed and have zero chance at a WL promotion. As such, this extra level would give you another competitive/fun season and take away an awful one.

This extra cap level would be d261-d320


Why I don't like the suggestion in the OP

Because all catch's OP is doing is making 2 more leagues competitive and leaving the other 6 to their current plight. It also does not attack any of the issues, but rather just looks like putting a band-aid on top of a gunshot wound.

Furthermore, the 50% team turnover in the WL is the result of it getting tacked on to the old pyramid structure, so its a bit naive to act like the 50% turnover as done with great purpose or thought.

If for some crazy reason we go to hemisphere leagues, those leagues absolutely should not have more team turnover (75% = retarded), and I'd contend that this is probably the chance to downsize the WL promotion/demotion so that it makes more sense, rather than creating another level with a retarded amount of promotion/demotion.


======My suggestion, which is supported by the causes of the current Natty Pro situation======

1. Reduce to 4 Natty Pro Leagues. Give them regional names that make sense. Keep each current Pro league name as a conference name. For instance, North America will have USA and Canada conferences. Europe is east and west. The last 2 leagues will be weird, but I'm sure someone besides DD can come up with a good name for those .

After s21, in each Pro league, promote/demote from WL like we have in the past. Then make up each new conference out of first the WL demotes to that league, and then of ALL playoff teams in both conferences of that league. So the new USAPro conference (in North America League) will be made up of 0-x WL demoting teams, and then up to the 14 (16 minus 2 in WL) Pro league playoff teams from last season. Fill in any open spots (if any) with some Regional Elite promotes.

With the non-playoff teams you need to demote them back to Regional Pro. A 1-time reshuffle based on both age, effective level, and past records makes sense. It might get a little messy, but will be great in the long-run.


2. For future seasons, you can either keep the current 16 WL promote/demote, or reduce it to 8 promote/demote (its the difference between each new Natty Pro conference champ promoting, and both the conf champ/runner up promoting. I'd contend that reducing it to 8 would be good for both WL and PL competition, but if you want to keep it at 16, that absolutely works with this idea.

Then at National Pro...

Step 1: Promote the 2 or 4 teams per league. (note you can keep the USA/EE/ect as WL team tags, except that correspond to conference instead of league)
Step 2: Demote any WL teams back to their original conference
Step 3: Demote bottom 4 teams from each Pro Conference. This will give 8x4 = 32 National Pro spots open for demotes (since WL promotes and demotes balance across all leagues)
Step 4: Promote the top 32 Regional Pro Elite teams (which will be better teams since they'll be higher leveled and packed with some former Pro demotes as well.

3. Make a new d261-d320 cap. This will allow (a) Higher leveled players for competition in uncapped regional pro, and (b) L64-65 minimum for the new National Pro. These are ages that players/teams can be competitive at.



And Bam, you actually have a solution that...
1. Solves your problems.
2. Makes sense.
3. Preserves the current regionalism of current natty pro leagues.
4. Gives you options for WL promotion (depending if you wanna keep 16 or make it 8 teams)
5. Makes Regional Pro more competitive as well.

+1 to wise is appreciate if you like this, since quoting and +1 would get a little long since I wrote a book. Also comments/critcizm on this is welcome.

(p.s. Can we please get DD to let us rename the league structure? If you put it up for vote, I guarantee 95% of users would rather not have the current confusing minor league name structure )

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Hey hazy. I am one of those fellas that -1'd in the voting. Here's why.+1