Warrior General Games

Originally posted by tragula
The problem with Catch's argument is that it practically false. There are too many combination of blitzes (no matter how limited will be the movement) that they will not be able to solve the problem in one big 'case' command.

Since the problem is in the they way the O read the field and make decision nothing will change. That will lead them to limit the motion so there will be no overload blitzing at all, which is just welcome back to season 8.


So your solution is to not try to fix it?

The way Bort was debugging his code was against everything I've ever learned (school or experience) for debugging complex or relatively complex code. He was opening all the chocks and just letting it fly, which simply makes the problem too big to chase/fix. This limiting the defensive movement at the very least gives him a chance to determine who could be coming, which paths they could take, and how the offensive line should be reacting.

Once he gets the basics set and working decently, then he can decide if he wants to allow people to go nuts with odd blitzes. I'm hoping that he does actually manage to get through the suck part of debugging and actually get it working the way it should be.

Originally posted by PinTBC
So your solution is to not try to fix it?

The way Bort was debugging his code was against everything I've ever learned (school or experience) for debugging complex or relatively complex code. He was opening all the chocks and just letting it fly, which simply makes the problem too big to chase/fix. This limiting the defensive movement at the very least gives him a chance to determine who could be coming, which paths they could take, and how the offensive line should be reacting.
.

I cannot really provide a solution since I cannot have access to the algorithm and code.

Some trivial observation are:
1. determine who could be coming - has nothing to do with the proposed changed. If needed it can be implemented in old DPC has in the new proposed DPC
2. which paths they could take - one need just to realize that there are limited paths to the QB, I counted 18 other counts 7. It doesn't really matter what is the number, without limiting the motion of defenders they could force any pass rusher to one of the pre-determined paths. One can also force that if two defenders try to occupy the same path they will slow each other down (the effect already exit).
3. how the offensive line should be reacting - will not be solved by the proposed change since they do not change anything in that.

My prediction is that limiting the motion will have one of two options:
1. Blitzing will be futile making all DC stop blitzing at all (the sim was like that a year or so ago)
2. The problem will not be solved leading to further constrains on the defense (if they are not willing to solve the problem, then they will need to keep constraining the defense until the problem is gone)

I think that the problem is deep in the way the blocking decisions are being made and likely there is a need for a full redo.
Crippling the game instead of solving a problem doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by PinTBC

Once he gets the basics set and working decently, then he can decide if he wants to allow people to go nuts with odd blitzes. I'm hoping that he does actually manage to get through the suck part of debugging and actually get it working the way it should b

Nominee for the most naive statement of the year award

Originally posted by PinTBC
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Once he gets the basics set and working decently, then he can decide if he wants to allow people to go nuts with odd blitzes. I'm hoping that he does actually manage to get through the suck part of debugging and actually get it working the way it should be.

I highly doubt once this is put in place, that it EVER goes back to more freedom. Once they get to a reasonable blocking scheme, it will stop development on blocking, thereby, ending development on that portion of the game.....if it doesn't, the game will never leave beta...

As long as they can get to some reasonable level of offense and defense, with reasonable results from equal builds, then I can accept this limitation, but it doesn't mean it is the right solution.

I think traqula is on the right track...have limited pathing for players, and supply some info to the o-line before the play starts....something like only having 1 blitzer able to "come free" and base a QB check down on his build (vision) and the build of his check-down target (vision, hot read pattern).

IRL, the defense usually tries to guess at where a hot read is going to be, if it guesses right, incomplete or interception, if it guesses wrong, possible TD given up....must be a realistic risk/reward in blitzing...currently, the passing game is so dominant, that the defense has to blitz in order to have some chance of slowing down the offenses.

Just one ironic point here which needs to be said.

The name of this game is goallineblitz isn't it? Blitzing seems to be the most effective strategy at the moment, so it's odd to me that they want to shut this idea down...

I agree with this actually, but only if the restriction is to a smaller range and not to individual preset spots.

What will happen to existing DPC plays?

Originally posted by Tragula
I think that the problem is deep in the way the blocking decisions are being made and likely there is a need for a full redo.
Crippling the game instead of solving a problem doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by PinTBC

Once he gets the basics set and working decently, then he can decide if he wants to allow people to go nuts with odd blitzes. I'm hoping that he does actually manage to get through the suck part of debugging and actually get it working the way it should b

Nominee for the most naive statement of the year award

I am under no illusions to the way Bort has previously tried to debug his code. I am under no illusions as to the difficulty of debugging a piece of code with so many inputs/outputs and results (which your statement about the number of paths leads me to believe you might be). Up until this point he has shown no interest in actually making sure his base code was working, instead he has been Mr ADD jumping to the next 'fun and cool' project, and adding layers onto code which was never given the thorough debug it required. Those layers hide, and add so much complexity on his basic code that he has no chance of getting it to work cleanly the way things currently stand.

This is the first time I've actually seen him bite the bullet and step back to try to make sure something was actually working before moving to the next 'cool' thing. I admit that I hold little hope of the DPC coming back to the state it is in now, at least he has a chance to 'fix' the basics of blocking.

My big problem with this is he still needs to consider how the different attributes, and levels of training feed into the equation also, and that isn't a small job in itself.

Watch this series. This is what you do against an overload blitz.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1430142&pbp_id=13940741

Let me have an OPC that I can create more of this kind of play and there is no problem. Later in the game these plays suffer from repeated play penalties.

Originally posted by neoliminal
Watch this series. This is what you do against an overload blitz.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1430142&pbp_id=13940741

Let me have an OPC that I can create more of this kind of play and there is no problem. Later in the game these plays suffer from repeated play penalties.

Overload blitzes are not the core problem.
Level 38 is level 38.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1431576&pbp_id=13808775 - just watch the FB
This problem will not be solved by the change (of course)

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1429485&pbp_id=13223243 - look on the cross blocking between the RG and RT

Originally posted by tragula
Overload blitzes are not the core problem.
Level 38 is level 38.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1431576&pbp_id=13808775 - just watch the FB
This problem will not be solved by the change (of course)

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1429485&pbp_id=13223243 - look on the cross blocking between the RG and RT

FB is being an id-dot.

Second play ... if they had thrown a screen pass to the HB...

And for the record there are more 27 and 38 level players than 75+ players. Just saying.

Originally posted by tragula
The problem with Catch's argument is that it practically false. There are too many combination of blitzes (no matter how limited will be the movement) that they will not be able to solve the problem in one big 'case' command.


But it will be easier to manage with a limited or outright removal of the DPC.

Originally posted by Mightyhalo
But it will be easier to manage with a limited or outright removal of the DPC.



It will be easier to manage when people leave the game because there's no DPC. ;-)

Originally posted by Mightyhalo
But it will be easier to manage with a limited or outright removal of the DPC.
True, but only in the context of blocking issues. Given that offensive production has far, far more of an impact on the sim than any blocking issues, removing or just limiting the DPC will not only render a lot of current builds pointless, but push the game even further into comical basketball scores that drive customers away due to the complete lack of realism.

Look at this way. Yes, in GLB it is possible for DCs to manipulate the blocking assignments from time to time, but in GLB offensive linemen don't just organically miss their blocking assignments the way they do occasionally in real life. Clearly blocking issues aren't a big enough problem in this sim given offensive production, meanwhile those blocking issues just serve as a substitute for legitimate blocking confusion that you do see every Saturday and Sunday.

This really comes down to nothing more than Bort's frustration. He's sick of working on the blocking code for years now, and doesn't want to be bothered with it anymore. While I understand that reaction, removing the DPC to spare him any more effort would clearly not be good for the game.

Originally posted by neoliminal

Second play ... if they had thrown a screen pass to the HB...

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1429485&pbp_id=13225030

Any argument that starts with WL OCs do know what they are doing is just bad.

Originally posted by Bort
TBH we could add some more formations like 4-4 by adding more limitations to the d line, since it would be far easier to test against.

The main things that I find dumb are the completely unrealistic D line setups some people make with a DE way outside on one side and the DT shifted way the other way, etc. Does not resemble a real formation in any way.

Check out the Bryant McFadden sack on Brees where he forces the fumble. There is a DT/DE head up over the LG. There isn't a defensive lineman anywhere outside him. The only player is a LB way outside. He drops back and the DT loops to the outside. Then the overload blitz comes from the other side.

It's the same basic principle and the defenses actually look quite similar.